Looking at Depression Quest and Analyzing Male Privilege

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T0ad 0f Truth:

Sir Thomas Sean Connery:
-snip-

Skype chat The spirits inform me it was school and other life/responsibility things. He requested the ban initially for april fool's then never appealed to come back.

I'll stand in for him *ahem*

Depression quest? More like Oppression Quest! Amiright?

...Yeah ok, I'll leave.

That makes sense then. Much less dramatic than I had fantasied though.

I'm sure you'll do a wonderful job!

Well, that definitely seems interesting. Still, I dunno about one thing.

One particularly astounding theme I've noticed running through online discussions surrounding these incidents has been a consistent denial that there is any real problem with the way women are treated in gaming. Despite the abundance of evidence, I've seen many of my fellow male gamers, in comment thread after comment thread, dismiss the issue as "no big deal" and insist that everyone is essentially treated the same.

Is that really the case? Surely, we have some self-aware peopl--

*glances at rest of thread*

...oh, so it's already drowned out by the "men (by which I mean me) have it just as bad," "they're all faking it to play the victim," "men talking about feminism are just trying to get into womens' pants," and "you shouldn't feel disadvantaged because other countries/races have it worse" rigamarole? Gotta admit, I was expecting at least a little bit of thought before it sank into denialist shit. Eh bien.

NeutralDrow:

...oh, so it's already drowned out by the "men (by which I mean me) have it just as bad," "they're all faking it to play the victim," "men talking about feminism are just trying to get into womens' pants," and "you shouldn't feel disadvantaged because other countries/races have it worse" rigamarole? Gotta admit, I was expecting at least a little bit of thought before it sank into denialist shit. Eh bien.

Unless the "thread" you're talking about was in those links, you're going to have to back this generaslisation up with more than "Oh, aren't you all fools!" . Most of the posts here have been criticising the articles on their merits/argurements.

IT'd be nice if you actually consider what people have to say before dismissing it so quickly.

NeutralDrow:

Is that really the case? Surely, we have some self-aware peopl--

*glances at rest of thread*

...oh, so it's already drowned out by the "men (by which I mean me) have it just as bad," "they're all faking it to play the victim," "men talking about feminism are just trying to get into womens' pants," and "you shouldn't feel disadvantaged because other countries/races have it worse" rigamarole? Gotta admit, I was expecting at least a little bit of thought before it sank into denialist shit. Eh bien.

Really? What thread were you reading? Most of this thread has been about how people would like to defuse this debate or disengage. Your post does not reflect what this discussion has been in this thread and certainly not any kind of majority of posters. Allow me to give you some actual quotes from outside of your brain world;

You can't just sit back making made up quotes no one actually said like the king of superior mountain. Its this kind of dismissive, generalized twaddle that makes people reject articles like this and their braying, nodding along target audience so completely. Non imaginary people are harder to dismiss.

Leon Declis:

My response to these sorts of things is that I feel it:

1) Drowns out serious issues. Everyone is raising a fuss over every little casette in a video game that when something big comes along, it seems no bigger an issue than the tiny, insignificant things which leads me to:

2) Leaves me feeling bored and numb to the whole thing. Do I hate sexism? Of course I hate sexism. But when I get shouted at in every direction from games journalism because a video game I bought has a male in it, or not enough females, or I watch white knights and SJW warriors fight with MRA over the burning remains of the thread, I just stop caring.

Take Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeroes. I liked that. I was happy to discuss it. And I discussed it again. And a third time. And then a fourth time by copying a response from a different thread. And I have simply stopped reading anything to do with it because it's the same complaint about the same thing and I now don't care. Congratulations, I no longer give a crap. I generally oppose rape and such, but I don't want to discuss and I don't want to read it anymore because I am constantly told that by being a male, I am therefore supporting rape if I don't hate myself for the ownership of the penis.

And I'm getting a little sick of how much the Escapist is constantly touching itself over this kind of thing. I used to come here for actual video game reviews, and interesting discussion about video games. If I want interesting discussion, it seems I wait for Shamus Young. I'll tell you what, Susan Arendt at least kept the forum moving and not stagnating.

And it's only this forum I see it on; no other forum gets such a hard-on for a single topic for about a year. Most people get bored after a few weeks. This forum just jumps into the peanut butter filled pool of self-righteous.

Tiring out and putting off the reasonable people is what this entire thing does. It leads to anyone with any kind of sensible middle ground feeling like they have no place in the debate. The sad thing is many Gamers from all demographics would love to help get more women into gaming, they are naturally supportive of the idea of moving the industry forward, but they get shouting down or dismissed and are put off from speaking out or engaging at all.

I've said this numerous times but i think many of the social justice types just like to shut out reasonable disagreement, or worse shout it down. It seems a bigger crime than actually having a distasteful opinion is disagreeing with their opinion. If you don't want to engage in the debate or you disagree with their specific approach then you are branded a 'bigot' and it makes you not want to participate any more even in a positive debate.

And that's what we really lack here. Positive debate. All we get is drama and buzz-words like 'oppression, privilege, patriarchy'. This debate isn't that hard you know. There are literal practical things that can be done RIGHT NOW to help women in gaming; pressuring publishers to let games makers have more control over their characters is one of them. A LOT of the absence of female leads has come from the business higher ups. It's not some kind of in-built flaw with men, it's simple good old fashioned lack of artistic integrity, a wide anging problem that creates a lot of other issues outside of the narrow world of "Men r bad". I've created numerous threads about this in the past but all people seem to care about is the other bullshit.

Jonathan McIntosh...now where did I hear that name again?
Male gamer privilege? Aight.
And this Kate Reynolds...gives us all a lesson on internalized patriarchy? Aight.

So the Escapist has now secured a constant stream of insane bullshit for it's users' amusement?

Adam Saltsman I have no idea about the guy, his article seems...allright.
But Chris Franklin? Do you really need another Moviebob?

.

nuttshell:
Jonathan McIntosh...now where did I hear that name again?
Male gamer privilege? Aight.
And this Kate Reynolds...gives us all a lesson on internalized patriarchy? Aight.

So the Escapist has now secured a constant stream of insane bullshit for it's users' amusement?

Valderis:
Oh joy, more bullshit about male privilege, and from one of the people involved with "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" no less.
How can this possibly go wrong?
*sigh*

Yes I'd noticed his name was attached to the article but saying something about a controversial individual usually leads to people crawling out of the woodwork shouting "Ad-hominem!" them promptly jizzing themselves over their own 'debating skills'. He has a history of involvement with rather dubious online money-making schemes if i recall, as does Anita. They are both 'professional personalities' who ferment controversy and attach themselves to issues in order to spin revenue.

JimmyPage666:
I really can't stand that term. "Male privilege" seems to imply that the mistreatment of women in game culture is the fault of ALL men - that it's my fault for being male or something. This whole "check your privileges" bullshit is a stupid argument and winds me up. The whole thing attacks any non-minority group as being privileged and therefore somehow either evil, or at best someone who's opinions aren't valid because "you're privileged".

I accept the points pointed out in the article (though the checklist was unnecessarily long - it was 8-9 points repeated over and over) but call it what it is. It's not "male privilege", it's "women being mistreated by sexist cunts".

More or less this. The majority of men aren't assholes - we don't mistreat women or insult them based on appearance or status or what have you. We judge, certainly, everyone does that, but the toxic "vocal" crowd on the internet is the tiny minority. It doesn't feel like it, since humans are built to remember pain better than anything else, but that's how it is. Men aren't disparaged based on the possession of a penis; they're disparaged based on literally everything the fuck else. Male developers have been called all kinds of names for decades now, some deserved and some not - but nobody gets all "omg check your privilege" about it because that's just how those twats are going to act, and it's a retarded stance to take. If anything, you're simply giving the internet douchebag crowd more fuel and an easier target.

If you, by some miracle, stop the guttercunts from using sexism in their arguments, they're just going to use any of the ten thousand other equally personal insults to "win arguments" on the internet. Hypersensitive people with no PR skills will still be offended, people who have no business being allowed to post on the net will still post toxic bullshit on the net, and nothing will change. That's why this male privilege bullshit is so tiresome. It's not fighting the good fight, it's just collecting ad revenue for various internet personas without actually solving anything.

It's pretty much the Kony 2012 of gaming arguments. And we're sick of it. Pack that shit in, Escapist. You used to have quality control. Don't be overrun by the tumblr internet justice idiots - they're delusional and will only hurt your site's credibility down the line.

Okay, I've been trying to distance myself from this whole "Feminism and gaming" debate, because it really is just a toxic screaming match that only served to make me more miserable the deeper I delved into it - but that being said, that "review" of Beyond: Two Souls was absolutely awful. The reviewer sounds like some sort of tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist, talking about how the game "rehabilitated" her into "internalized patriarchal beliefs" and "roped her in against her will" - except, lady, you're the one who choose to play the game. Nothing was against your will there, unless David Cage broke into your house, tied you to a chair, and demanded you play this game he made. I realize she probably didn't willingly decide to identify with Jodie, but still, you can't blame the game for invoking emotion in you - because, you know, that's what stories are supposed to do. It sounds like she's blaming the game itself for the attitude she adopted - as though Beyond:TS blasted her with patriarchy-indoctrinating mind rays or something. Seriously, what the hell?

Not to mention it's staggeringly obvious that she didn't finish the game. Which is normally something I'd excuse, if the reviewer didn't like it, but with such a story-based game, and such story-based criticism in the review, not finishing the story seems like kind of a cheap shot. "I didn't see any strong women in the game!" - how would you know if you didn't finish it? "The game's racist because Dawkins is higher-ranking than Cole and presented as better than him in every way!" - Except he isn't, especially towards the end, which you'd know if you had finished the game . "The Navajo story line was racist because it's 'white man saves the day!'" - Except the entire mess was the result of white men in the first place, which you'd know if you finished the game, so really it's "White woman comes back and helps fixes the problem white guys caused in the first place."

I mean, honestly, I didn't even like Beyond:TS and I don't agree with that review. It's a mess of paranoia, feminist buzzwords, and incomplete pictures.

Shadefyre:
Almost like it's a result of not having any bigger problems to deal with.

Says the man who plays video games in his spare time, then complains about them on the internet. Don't you have bigger problems to deal with?

Gerardo Vazquez:

Shadefyre:
Almost like it's a result of not having any bigger problems to deal with.

Says the man who plays video games in his spare time, then complains about them on the internet. Don't you have bigger problems to deal with?

Which is the reason I don't pretend that I'm crusading against injustice in the world through an anonymous medium that doesn't require me to actually do anything but talk shit about other people online.

Sir Thomas Sean Connery:

On a side note, I really wish Taco was still with us to make a post about fedoras and misogyny.
i still have no idea what in the world could have gotten him banned

Did somebody say.... FEDORAS???

*cracks knuckles*

Does that do it?

OT: Interesting things and all but is it just a compilation of videos/analysis/critiques from the website? It just seemes like a lazy linking once a week...

But new content I haven't seen/heard of is new content so I'll take it :3

PsychicTaco115:

Sir Thomas Sean Connery:

On a side note, I really wish Taco was still with us to make a post about fedoras and misogyny.
i still have no idea what in the world could have gotten him banned

Did somebody say.... FEDORAS???

*cracks knuckles*

Does that do it?

OH CHRIST, IT'S ALIVE
image

and yes, that was beautiful. positively heavenly, great and glorious lord

PsychicTaco115:

Sir Thomas Sean Connery:

On a side note, I really wish Taco was still with us to make a post about fedoras and misogyny.
i still have no idea what in the world could have gotten him banned

Did somebody say.... FEDORAS???

*cracks knuckles*

Does that do it?

OT: Interesting things and all but is it just a compilation of videos/analysis/critiques from the website? It just seemes like a lazy linking once a week...

But new content I haven't seen/heard of is new content so I'll take it :3

Oh, welcome back Taco, you've been sorely missed. It just wouldn't be the same Escapist without your jovial presence.

OT: Well, I like Errant Signal and I have no problem with hive videos being linked on here, but I honestly think most of this is going to fall on deaf ears.

As I can tell the OP from personal experience, it's best just to try and let sleeping dogs lie and not bring these things up. Just take a couple deep breaths and move on. It just gets kind of depressing otherwise.

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