Finnish Hearthstone Tournament Changes Policy on Women - Update

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Pinky's Brain:

Guffe:
you'd basically be OK with it if they'd say there's one for women and one for men, but due to the fact there's ONLY one for men it's not OK

It's not that I would be okay with it, but I can understand the argument and I wouldn't call them bad names for doing it.

Then I understood you :D

I wonder if all this publicity will make them change the rules or way of the tournament?
It certainly isn't good in any way. And now everyone will be able to start calling gamers all sorts of awful things again :(
*sigh*

E-sports are not real sports! They are E-sports. I do not mean that in a bad way. I mean that E-sports need to stop chasing the Sports title by doing everything the same way as physical sports. That way you aren't playing to your strengths (mixed competition being totally doable in E-sports without problems), but getting yourself pulled down by the disadvantages of other sports.

"This is to avoid possible conflicts (e.g. a female player eliminating a male player during RO8) among other things."

So this has nothing to do with wanting females to have fair chances, but your just afraid of female competence, cause that is what I am reading in this comment.

And if it is to give females a chance to compete in E-sports: Scarlet called, she would like to have a word with you. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Scarlett

What, are they going to claim that women are bad at teh mathz or that men can right-click faster?

I see no legitimate reason for this exclusion, as its completely arbitrary. Its so transparently crap that they couldn't even give an actual reason why they're doing it other than "eSports = sports, duh", which is patently false for tons of reasons.

What next, the guy who can't move his legs, an physical ability completely unrelated to playing Starcraft, has to be in a Para-eSports league?

roseofbattle:
"Since the IeSF World Championship Hearthstone tournament in Baku is male only, we can only accept male participants in the Finnish qualifier,"

I think this might be the actual issue. The tournament is male only, and rather than open it to women, they are looking for a logical-sounding justification to block female players from entering.

So it's even worse than plain segregation, as no female-only alternative is even been offered. It's a cover up for a straight up exclusion of women from the game.

Why is the tournament male only? No idea, but possibly due to socio-cultural reasons (That is, deeply rooted* sexism both in organizers and audiences)

* By deeply-rooted I mean the type of sexist attitudes so ingrained in a culture people don't even realize they have it. For an example, talking to the average grandparent about gender issues should suffice. Not calling people "evil" here, just pointing out that the problem tends to be larger than just the individuals.

Yes, well, obviously women have an unfair advantage. If a male gamer becomes aware of a female they will instinctively try to protect them in order to achieve 1st base/run away in fear of cooties/faint, especially if the female in question is menstruating.

Phrozenflame500:

But it is still kinda dumb the way e-sports keeps doing shit solely for the purpose of being seen as a "real sport". Particularly this part:

This World Champsionship's titles include Dota 2, Starcraft 2, Hearthstone, and Ultra Street Fighter IV in the male competition. The female competitions include Starcraft 2 and Tekken Tag Tournament.

Yeah, if you're going to segregate the competition at least have the same games in each category...

Yeah, this is confusing.

Maybe Starcraft 2 and Tekken have more female players? That's the only reason I can think of.

We should also probably segregate on race, ala the Negro leagues. Because I'm tired of watching Koreans dominate RTSes with their unreasonable APM.

I only want to watch heterosexual white males battling it out against other heterosexual white males.

This "women who are not currently located in the kitchen" thing baffles me. Where's my Sandvich©?

What. The. Hell. Who is responsible for this? I don't mean the company or the organization, I mean the person responsible. Someone had to sit in a board room somewhere are say "you know what would make this a real sport? Segregation!" I want to know who that guy was. I want to know who were the other guys who all said "you know, that sounds like a great idea!" And I want everyone to know who they are so they can all be publicly shamed for the rest of their lives.

roseofbattle:

Koskivirta said. "This is to avoid possible conflicts (e.g. a female player eliminating a male player during RO8) among other things."

uwotm8?

What conflict is there that a female player eliminated a male player during the RO8?

Well I understand their reasoning of "look legit sports sponsors we are just like the real thing", but they completely ignored the fact physical sports have that segregation due to physical limits and gaming hasn't got that at all (unless we are talking severe disabilities).

So yeah this is all bullshit and they need to get hammered into the ground by the public for it. And on that note several IRL sports should re-examine their policies since we are at it, many do not depend on brute force and could easily mix up the challengers.

Houseman:
It made sense once I read the "we want it to be just like real sports" part.

Look at soccer, football, basketball, baseball, or even the Olympics. They're all segregated into male and female "leagues".

Of course, there are actual legitimate reasons for why those sports are "segregated", but whether or not these reasons are legitimate when applied to e-sports is up for debate

Not really. In what conceivable way do men have an unfair/unsafe advantage at clicking a mouse. It's the equivalent of having gender segregated Chess. And if that doesn't sound profoundly stupid to you, then i've got a bridge to sell ya.

Micalas:

roseofbattle:

Koskivirta said. "This is to avoid possible conflicts (e.g. a female player eliminating a male player during RO8) among other things."

uwotm8?

What conflict is there that a female player eliminated a male player during the RO8?

Because that female player wouldn't actually be able to play in the tournament that the qualifying tourney is for. Basically its the guy organizing the qualifier pointing his finger at the bigger event.

Micalas:

roseofbattle:

Koskivirta said. "This is to avoid possible conflicts (e.g. a female player eliminating a male player during RO8) among other things."

uwotm8?

What conflict is there that a female player eliminated a male player during the RO8?

Because they can't have a woman win the tournament, that would just be ridicules. (I hope I'm just being sarcastic).

walrusaurus:

Micalas:

roseofbattle:

Koskivirta said. "This is to avoid possible conflicts (e.g. a female player eliminating a male player during RO8) among other things."

uwotm8?

What conflict is there that a female player eliminated a male player during the RO8?

Because that female player wouldn't actually be able to play in the tournament that the qualifying tourney is for. Basically its the guy organizing the qualifier pointing his finger at the bigger event.

OH! I get it now. The RO8 is the qualifier series. That makes more sense. Though it doesn't change the fact that it's stupid that a female player can't play in the tournament.

Houseman:
It made sense once I read the "we want it to be just like real sports" part.

Look at soccer, football, basketball, baseball, or even the Olympics. They're all segregated into male and female "leagues".

Of course, there are actual legitimate reasons for why those sports are "segregated", but whether or not these reasons are legitimate when applied to e-sports is up for debate

It's not up for debate at all. Physical strength and stamina isn't an issue in E-sports. It doesn't even enter into it. Especially in card games like Hearthstone where a disabled person who can only control the game with their eyes would be just as capable as anyone else.

Dota2, Starcraft 2 etc, yeah you need reaction time, but that has nothing to do with gender or physical strength. It's the same reason Chess, Snooker, Darts, and other games like that shouldn't be gender segregated. Granted, you don't /see/ many women in those games, but gaming has almost a 50/50 split for gender participation.

All the sports you mentioned have perfectly good reasons for being segregated, Football, Rugby and American Football especially, but a video game, does not.

Furtermore, here is the tourney list:

Male Competition: Dota 2, Starcraft 2, Hearthstone, Ultra Street Fighter IV
Female Competition: Starcraft 2, Tekken Tag Tournament 2

That is not a gender division, that's segregation and exclusion.

Jesus, when the hell did satire become reality? REALITY HAS OFFICIALLY GONE FULL POE'S LAW!

http://www.neckbeard-news.com/2014/04/new-e-burqa-law-will-prevent-girl.html#.U7RDYfldXiM

I'll wait this out until it's confirmed there's no female tournament.

They say this is a men's tournament, thus, if there's a female one down the line, I'm really not seeing the immediate problem.

Sure, it seperates men and women in the short term, but, in the long term it opens the door to fill an entire tournament just with women.

And just because it's seperate one year doesn't mean it's going to be the next. Only allowing men into this tournament could just be so that women have a tournament that won't be completely dominated by the status quo.

And, yeah, it's very interesting to see the good old "Men's only is sexist! Women's only is a safe place for women from the horrible men!".

That's just sexist, nothing else to call it.

This makes me wish I could actually be bothered to watch other people play competitive video games in the first place, just so that I could boycott them. Alas.

Heh. I'm just waiting for them to divide the people with physical disabilities from the rest too, just like 'real sports'.

"Sir, we're sorry to say you can't compete in the regular leagues."

"Why? What's wrong."

"Well, you're in a wheel-chair. Obviously, you can't compete with the people with fully functional legs."

"B-but... we're playing on computers! Everyone's going to sit down anyway. No use of legs is required!"

"That's inconsequential, sir. This is a REAL sport, so I'm afraid those with physical disabilities are not allowed to play in the regular leagues."

That's BS really. All you need to be competitive in Hearthstone is a mostly functioning brain and a bit of luck. I can understand it for other esports in order to create a level playing field, because I suppose men have better reflexes and hand/eye coordination (can't explain why no women have been truly exceptional at them otherwise), but you need none of that in Hearthstone.

This pisses me off in two different ways. First of course, as many others have pointed out, it's complete bullshit to segregate in esports.

But second: The problem might be only half as bad if there were the mentioned female-only tournaments. But then you fucking had to go and hold the main event in a Islam-tinged dictatorship!!!

I find it very strange that some of you think it's OK to segregate men and women in physical competition but at the same time argue that there shouldn't be any segregation in eSports. More disturbing is the fact that you accept the fact that men and women are different physically but you don't accept the fact that there are also differences between the brains of men and women.
http://www.livescience.com/2855-brains-wired-differently-men-women.html
http://www.livescience.com/3808-men-women-differently.html
These are some articles I found in a cursory search. There's probably more you can find. This one is also very good but it's more on the psychological side (which can affect performance).
http://bsb-lab.org/site/wp-content/uploads/DelGiudice_etal_2012_global-sex-differences_personality_pone.pdf

Of course, we need more specialized studies to see if differences in brain wiring truly warrant segregation in eSports but to dismiss the idea of segregation out of hand is a bit lazy.

walrusaurus:

Not really. In what conceivable way do men have an unfair/unsafe advantage at clicking a mouse. It's the equivalent of having gender segregated Chess. And if that doesn't sound profoundly stupid to you, then i've got a bridge to sell ya.

I don't know enough about the biomechanical aspects of clicking a mouse to make a claim one way or the other.

johnsarif above me has the right idea. Follow the science. Do the tests. Get the objective data. Then decide

Carnagath:
That's BS really. All you need to be competitive in Hearthstone is a mostly functioning brain and a bit of luck. I can understand it for other esports in order to create a level playing field, because I suppose men have better reflexes and hand/eye coordination (can't explain why no women have been truly exceptional at them otherwise), but you need none of that in Hearthstone.

You need at least 300APM at Hearthstone, alongside a 360NoStreamSnipeRagnaros420ByFireBeBlazed to even consider competing. What are you, some casul?

OT:
Yeah, well fuck you Finnish Hearthstone Tournament. How idiotic do you have to be to actually make this ruling for AN ONLINE GAME. Why do you EVEN HAVE TO. How many women even play at the pro level? Why limit the ONE OR TWO POTENTIAL CANDIDATES WHO MAY MAKE YOU LOOK GOOD IN THE PROCESS.

I don't even underfuckingstand. Way to look like a hillbilly for no reason at all.

johnsarif:
I find it very strange that some of you think it's OK to segregate men and women in physical competition but at the same time argue that there shouldn't be any segregation in eSports. More disturbing is the fact that you accept the fact that men and women are different physically but you don't accept the fact that there are also differences between the brains of men and women.
http://www.livescience.com/2855-brains-wired-differently-men-women.html
http://www.livescience.com/3808-men-women-differently.html
These are some articles I found in a cursory search. There's probably more you can find. This one is also very good but it's more on the psychological side (which can affect performance).
http://bsb-lab.org/site/wp-content/uploads/DelGiudice_etal_2012_global-sex-differences_personality_pone.pdf

Of course, we need more specialized studies to see if differences in brain wiring truly warrant segregation in eSports but to dismiss the idea of segregation out of hand is a bit lazy.

I didn't know that logic-processing was so bloody different that you have to consider the "different wirings within the male/female brain" to separate competition. God forbid the girl might use a card differently than a dude. Puh-fucking-lease. This isn't Starcraft (and then I'd have an actual pro-player example thanks to Scarlett), it's a turn-based card game.

Ferisar:

I didn't know that logic-processing was so bloody different that you have to consider the "different wirings within the male/female brain" to separate competition. God forbid the girl might use a card differently than a dude. Puh-fucking-lease. This isn't Starcraft (and then I'd have an actual pro-player example thanks to Scarlett), it's a turn-based card game.

I don't mean to burst your bubble but Scarlett is MtF transgender. Probably the best non-Korean Starcraft 2 player is a girl who was a guy. So she's not the best example because we need to take into account the effects of the hormone replacement theray. There are at least 2 other girls which play Starcraft 2 professionally which you can use as examples but I can't remember their names.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/the-grid/starcraft-2-sasha-scarlett-hostyn-transgender-gamer-champion
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/326957-interview-2012-ipl4-scarlett

Ferisar:

I didn't know that logic-processing was so bloody different that you have to consider the "different wirings within the male/female brain" to separate competition.

That's his point. You don't know. You don't know how "bloody different" it is or isn't. Nobody but the experts know.

FYI guys, the only people who consider e-sports an actual sport are the people who play and stand to make a living off of e-sports. For the rest of us, it's called a video game.

johnsarif:

Ferisar:

I didn't know that logic-processing was so bloody different that you have to consider the "different wirings within the male/female brain" to separate competition. God forbid the girl might use a card differently than a dude. Puh-fucking-lease. This isn't Starcraft (and then I'd have an actual pro-player example thanks to Scarlett), it's a turn-based card game.

I don't mean to burst your bubble but Scarlett is MtF transgender. Probably the best non-Korean Starcraft 2 player is a girl who was a guy. So she's not the best example because we need to take into account the effects of the hormone replacement theray. There are at least 2 other girls which play Starcraft 2 professionally which you can use as examples but I can't remember their names.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/the-grid/starcraft-2-sasha-scarlett-hostyn-transgender-gamer-champion
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/326957-interview-2012-ipl4-scarlett

Point still stands, even if you exclude her based around the MtF part. Hearthstone is NOT a "high-APM" sport that requires some kind of "male-only" (what a stupid statement) processing power, if we're even gauging it by that (which I still don't buy, it's an awful argument). Hearthstone requires your brain to be functional and to know how to play probabilities, everything revolving around the meta-game can be examined by literally anyone and the play-by-play decisions give you upward of 3 minutes to make a play. There's as much reason to exclude girls from this as there is to exclude girls from taking mathematics in schools.

Houseman:

Ferisar:

I didn't know that logic-processing was so bloody different that you have to consider the "different wirings within the male/female brain" to separate competition.

That's his point. You don't know. You don't know how "bloody different" it is or isn't. Nobody but the experts know.

You know what I know? That I communicate with females on a daily basis who seem to function exactly the same as me outside of our reproductive desires. Please think of the SPIRIT OF COMPETITION in HEARTHSTONE AND SAVE US FROM THEIR LACK OF TESTOSTERONE.
I could not give two shits about what the minute differences in brain-chemistry there is; if a woman is good enough to compete, give her the benefit of inclusion to compete, not be a backwards piece of shit and say "nope, sorry, brain's too different #gamerscience". It's not like they're offering an all-girls league either, they're just telling them to fuck off, effectively. I'd have more support for that than for what they're doing right now.

We're not talking about some scientific debate about the differences between male and female cognitive ability. We're talking about a game. Specifically, we're talking about Hearthstone; Not starcraft, not some hand-to-eye reaction-tester, it's fucking HEARTHSTONE.

Wait, poker and chess are sports but they have mixed genders. Hell, tennis has mixed doubles and that is a physical sport.

Where does this idea of "... well the physical sports do it" come from? It is divided due to physical strength, unless a none athletic man is pitted against a very athletic woman, she has no chance but playing a card game on a computer?

Seriously... what kind of idiot thinks that the sexual dimorphism that separates the various physical sports into male and female, would need to accounted for in competitive video game competitions. It's a fucking card game. What mental sexual dimorphism there is, I doubt is so pronounced as to make male and female competition in it, fundamentally on different levels. So... fucking... stupid...

It's like the person who designed how the leagues would be organized with no understanding of why sports are divided on sex a good chunk of the time, just copied it over without even thinking about what might be different about this kind of competition.

Well, there's your problem. You're trying to classify "games" as "sports".

Ferisar:

I didn't know that logic-processing was so bloody different that you have to consider the "different wirings within the male/female brain" to separate competition. God forbid the girl might use a card differently than a dude. Puh-fucking-lease. This isn't Starcraft (and then I'd have an actual pro-player example thanks to Scarlett), it's a turn-based card game.

As well as segregating males and females because they might think differently, I guess we'll have to segregate it further for those who are neurotypical and those that are not neurotypical. There's no real reason to, but segregation is good? Right guys?

Ferisar:

You know what I know? That I communicate with females on a daily basis who seem to function exactly the same as me outside of our reproductive desires.

The same? Really?
Based on the study I posted above:

The data, pulled from 10,000 American men and women who took a questionnaire that measured 15 variations of personality traits, records that men and women feel and behave in very specific (and gendered) ways.

Men are more:
- Dominant
- Reserved
- Utilitarian
- Vigilant
- Rule-conscious
- Emotionally stable

While women are more:
- Deferential
- Warm
- Trusting
- Sensitive
- Emotionally "reactive"

As a side note, I'm all for gender equality. I believe that it's OK to have mixed eSports competition but that's just that, a belief. I do not have any conclusive evidence to support it or to refute it.

Ferisar:

You know what I know? That I communicate with females on a daily basis who seem to function exactly the same as me outside of our reproductive desires.

Well, we don't come to medical conclusions about the intricacies of brain chemistry according to sex based on the anecdotal evidence of laypeople, and for good reason too.

johnsarif:

Ferisar:

You know what I know? That I communicate with females on a daily basis who seem to function exactly the same as me outside of our reproductive desires.

The same? Really?
Based on the study I posted above:

snip

As a side note, I'm all for gender equality. I believe that it's OK to have mixed eSports competition but that's just that, a belief. I do not have any conclusive evidence to support it or to refute it.

The same studies are often argued to entirely based on upbringing and "wiring" that we give children during their early years. We encourage those traits in men and encourage the other traits in women.
And yes, the same. You have to be conscious of the differences to realize they're trivial. It doesn't somehow cause me to be unable to communicate with a woman, on a physical or a psychological level; ergo, for my purposes, it's minute. I might have as much trouble communicating with a male with whom I hold less relation.

Look, I get what you (and the other guy) are saying: there are very likely to be differences in brain chemistry, but those differences don't merit the exclusion of women from fucking video game competitions.

Houseman:

Ferisar:

You know what I know? That I communicate with females on a daily basis who seem to function exactly the same as me outside of our reproductive desires.

Well, we don't come to medical conclusions about the intricacies of brain chemistry according to sex based on the anecdotal evidence of laypeople, and for good reason too.

Maybe we should separate the two sexes completely, right? Fuck men and women ever being in the same anything. Workplaces? Women are too different. Voting? They might make a different decision. Artistry? Why? Women might draw differently then men, same with writing. Let them read only female-written books, after all, men won't understand it anyway, it's just too different.
Class-rooms? Nope. Playground games for toddlers? Nope. Let's get even more trivial, please! Did I make an anecdotal layperson statement? Yeah. Guess what this competition did? Do you really think they went to some study(/ies) to make this decision? No, they just did the same sweeping statement based on nothing but "how sports do it" as if physical and cognitive competition is the same thing. To the layperson, this looks ludicrous, or at the very least it SHOULD look ludicrous.

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