Sony Financials Spiraling Downward: $2.2 Billion Net Loss This Year

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Sony Financials Spiraling Downward: $2.2 Billion Net Loss This Year

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Smartphones are to blame.

Sony, Kaz Hirai promised a long time ago, would return to profitability. Now, for the sixth time in a row, Sony under Kaz Hirai's leadership has forecast a financial loss; but this isn't just any loss. It's a projected net loss of ¥230 billion, or $2.2 billion. Sony always expected to make a loss this financial year, but it anticipated a loss of only ¥50 billion. So what happened to quadruple that figure?

Smartphones happened, says Sony, as it cancels its dividend for the year. When Sony elected to sell off its PC division, it said it would concentrate on smartphones and tablets, but of that loss figure, a staggering ¥180 billion ($1.7 billion) can be attributed to its lackluster smartphones division. New Chief Financial Officer Kenichiro Yoshida, who only took up the post earlier this year, now has to wipe the egg off his face and see what he can do to make the figures palatable.

Part of the trouble, at least in the US, is that Sony's smartphone devices are only available via T-Mobile, currently only the fourth ranking carrier in that market. In July, Yoshida warned that the smartphone division could write down losses in its mobile division this year. Projected losses of this magnitude will only strengthen the argument that Sony should drop its loss-making smartphone division like a hot brick, and stick to selling PS4s and the like.

Source: Reuters

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It's funny cause the best phone I have ever owned is the Sony Xperia one that I have. It's a great example of a good android phone that isn't made with cheap chinese internals or made by Samsung. Everyone I know with a Sony also really loves the phones. Additionally Cyanogenmod aparently support them well so when Sony turns off the updates there is a well supported custom system that'll work briliantly.

They wanted to get involved in one of the most oversaturated markets. They didn't offer anything that would make their phones stand out from the rest of the crowd. If they wanted to develop smartphones maybe they should have developed just one cheap model for developing countries.

Unfortunate, the Xperia Z1 and Z2 are great phones, always loved mine. I hope they pull out of it soon.

going to show that Sony is a far bigger company than just a games one. They REALLY need to step it up in their other divisions because the entertainment and games ones can't make up for everything else's losses.

Ouch ouch.

From what I've heard those phones are good? Perhaps they can make them extremely durable and use them as a selling point.

I mean, shit, you'd be surprised how many people would go for that.

how weird it is to see sony getting its ass kicked when it comes to electronics

they used to be the king of electronic devices

If they increased the amount of carriers that would help. I know my mom has a sony (not sure what type) but she really likes it. The only thing she doesn't like is the back cant be removed.

so let me get this straight - instead of dropping out of the smartphone market dominated by google, samsung and apple, they drop the Vaio brand? As in the one that actually had some potential as opposed to the bloody xperia that no one even wants in the first place?

So, what's going to happen to Playstation in the next five years if Sony can't turn things around?

It would be bizarre if after all that noise about Microsoft dropping Xbox it ends with Sony being the ones forced to spin off Playstation (or if Playstation is the only thing worth picking up when the vultures circle).

The problems are deep at Sony. I can't say I've bought anything Sony that isn't playstation in years. The TV's are too pricey for what you get, their audio equipment is likewise poor bang for buck, the phones whilst nice suffer from a problem I have with many high end phones: big cost justified by crap I don't care about. Quite sad as whenever I've had Sony things they're very nice.

Except the PS1 that has to be turned upside down all the time.

Odd though, that M$ can throw almost what Sony lost this year at buying a dev studio and a brand, and telling of the long term. Provided of course Windows 9 doesn't blow chunks.

fix-the-spade:
So, what's going to happen to Playstation in the next five years if Sony can't turn things around?

It would be bizarre if after all that noise about Microsoft dropping Xbox it ends with Sony being the ones forced to spin off Playstation (or if Playstation is the only thing worth picking up when the vultures circle).

Nah, I think Sony if they collapse will at least die near the end of the gaming generation, just in time for Microsoft to shut their gaming division down like will obviously happen. If that happens, thats console gaming dead right there. Because all you got left is the Nintendo and their scummy console practices will keep me away forever.

What happened to Sony is South Korea. Used to be everything electronic in my house was Sony, now (with the exeption of PS) all of it is Samsung (TV, AC, phone) or LG (Blu-ray, microwave, monitor) which offer Sony level of quality but much cheaper.

NuclearKangaroo:
they used to be the king of electronic devices

That's the problem with kings, they rest on their laurels. Just look at what happened at the start of the PS3.

At this point Sony is too big to turn things around, yet too big to just snuff out. It remains interesting to see where this money-hemorrhaging giant is going to end up.

Alot more competition making better products that are cheaper than Sony. They have always made over priced goods. Their phone are quite good but the phone market is over crowded and its hard for any company to make money if your not Apple. Its the reason why the PS4 is just like the PS3 but more powerful - they couldnt risk bringing out something different as they would be in even more debt.

I think if they have more problems they will just offload more things. Soon it will just be PS4, game developing and Spiderman movies.

Lets put this in bit of perspective, this loss represents 3% of turnover. Its nowhere near fatal for the company, it only needs an upswing of 7% for profits to be where you expect for business of this kind.

Dragonbums:
Ouch ouch.

From what I've heard those phones are good?

They are, if you where you to make a sensible list of the type five flagship handsets the Xperia Z2 would be in it. The argument could be made that its one of the top three Android handsets along with the HTC One M8 and either the LG G3 or Galaxy S3, they are just not selling.

SonOfVoorhees:
Its the reason why the PS4 is just like the PS3 but more powerful - they couldnt risk bringing out something different as they would be in even more debt.

I'd argue against that since the gaming division seems to be the only place where they actually learned their lesson a bit. They made a system that's easier to develop for -- none of this Cell architecture -- and doesn't cost (as much of) a shitton of money at launch. They sold the systems practically on 'Look, we're not as much of a shitbag this time around'.

And seriously, what next-gen console isn't just the last system, but more powerful (apart from the Wii)?

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

fix-the-spade:
So, what's going to happen to Playstation in the next five years if Sony can't turn things around?

It would be bizarre if after all that noise about Microsoft dropping Xbox it ends with Sony being the ones forced to spin off Playstation (or if Playstation is the only thing worth picking up when the vultures circle).

Nah, I think Sony if they collapse will at least die near the end of the gaming generation, just in time for Microsoft to shut their gaming division down like will obviously happen. If that happens, thats console gaming dead right there. Because all you got left is the Nintendo and their scummy console practices will keep me away forever.

I just cannot agree on this. I simply do not see the consoles going away. Neither Playstation or Xbox... and I cannot fathom why people think this is going to happen. SOMEONE would pick up the Playstation brand if Sony went under, as its obviously hugely successful. The Xbox brand isnt going anywhere, either, as it is way more popular than alot of people want to give it credit for, its just overshadowed by the even larger success of the PS4. Plus, I read that Microsoft has a RESERVE of something to the tune of 70-80 BILLION, just sitting there for a rainy day. They have it in their minds that the Xbox is here to stay, and unless THEY decide otherwise, it will.

I switched over from the PC to consoles looooong ago, but ultimately, I started on a console. The Atari 2600, followed by the NES were my first consoles. I feel reasonably sure that the numbers of people that prefer consoles are staggering, and wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

albino boo:
Lets put this in bit of perspective, this loss represents 3% of turnover. Its nowhere near fatal for the company, it only needs an upswing of 7% for profits to be where you expect for business of this kind.

I don't think its fatal for the company, but I do think it might be the end for the leadership for it seems they are making poor choices all over the place. I do agree with that they seem to have gotten it right with the PS4 on development, but if Sony goes back into the black I wonder if they are going to learn from these mistakes or be doomed to repeat the PS3.

Riff Moonraker:

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

fix-the-spade:
So, what's going to happen to Playstation in the next five years if Sony can't turn things around?

It would be bizarre if after all that noise about Microsoft dropping Xbox it ends with Sony being the ones forced to spin off Playstation (or if Playstation is the only thing worth picking up when the vultures circle).

Nah, I think Sony if they collapse will at least die near the end of the gaming generation, just in time for Microsoft to shut their gaming division down like will obviously happen. If that happens, thats console gaming dead right there. Because all you got left is the Nintendo and their scummy console practices will keep me away forever.

I just cannot agree on this. I simply do not see the consoles going away. Neither Playstation or Xbox... and I cannot fathom why people think this is going to happen. SOMEONE would pick up the Playstation brand if Sony went under, as its obviously hugely successful. The Xbox brand isnt going anywhere, either, as it is way more popular than alot of people want to give it credit for, its just overshadowed by the even larger success of the PS4. Plus, I read that Microsoft has a RESERVE of something to the tune of 70-80 BILLION, just sitting there for a rainy day. They have it in their minds that the Xbox is here to stay, and unless THEY decide otherwise, it will.

I switched over from the PC to consoles looooong ago, but ultimately, I started on a console. The Atari 2600, followed by the NES were my first consoles. I feel reasonably sure that the numbers of people that prefer consoles are staggering, and wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

Someone buying the Playstation actually seems pretty logical.

And the Xbox brand being sunk came from Microsoft themselves. They said "If this doesn't turn a significant profit, we will shut down the whole division" you see, Microsoft Game Studios has NEVER made a profit. Ever. And all the Microsoft investors are furious and have hated Microsoft's refusal to cut it off since it was made. The Xbone would need to do a fuckload better then it has to beat the 360 and even cover its losses.

fix-the-spade:
So, what's going to happen to Playstation in the next five years if Sony can't turn things around?

It would be bizarre if after all that noise about Microsoft dropping Xbox it ends with Sony being the ones forced to spin off Playstation (or if Playstation is the only thing worth picking up when the vultures circle).

Playstation fans need to prepare for a possible scenario in which MS will acquire Sony gaming division :D

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

Riff Moonraker:

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

Nah, I think Sony if they collapse will at least die near the end of the gaming generation, just in time for Microsoft to shut their gaming division down like will obviously happen. If that happens, thats console gaming dead right there. Because all you got left is the Nintendo and their scummy console practices will keep me away forever.

I just cannot agree on this. I simply do not see the consoles going away. Neither Playstation or Xbox... and I cannot fathom why people think this is going to happen. SOMEONE would pick up the Playstation brand if Sony went under, as its obviously hugely successful. The Xbox brand isnt going anywhere, either, as it is way more popular than alot of people want to give it credit for, its just overshadowed by the even larger success of the PS4. Plus, I read that Microsoft has a RESERVE of something to the tune of 70-80 BILLION, just sitting there for a rainy day. They have it in their minds that the Xbox is here to stay, and unless THEY decide otherwise, it will.

I switched over from the PC to consoles looooong ago, but ultimately, I started on a console. The Atari 2600, followed by the NES were my first consoles. I feel reasonably sure that the numbers of people that prefer consoles are staggering, and wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

Someone buying the Playstation actually seems pretty logical.

And the Xbox brand being sunk came from Microsoft themselves. They said "If this doesn't turn a significant profit, we will shut down the whole division" you see, Microsoft Game Studios has NEVER made a profit. Ever. And all the Microsoft investors are furious and have hated Microsoft's refusal to cut it off since it was made. The Xbone would need to do a fuckload better then it has to beat the 360 and even cover its losses.

I say wait until win 9 turns them a huge profit and they will forget about it and let the gaming division roam rampant.

I would have a Sony Smartphone if not for the fact you can only get them on T-Mobile, which is a financially stupid decision on Sony's part. Of course your smart phone is not doing well when it's only sold on the 4th largest carrier. You know how many people in my life have used T-Mobile? 2 people. Put it on other carriers and watch your numbers climb.

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

Riff Moonraker:

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

Nah, I think Sony if they collapse will at least die near the end of the gaming generation, just in time for Microsoft to shut their gaming division down like will obviously happen. If that happens, thats console gaming dead right there. Because all you got left is the Nintendo and their scummy console practices will keep me away forever.

I just cannot agree on this. I simply do not see the consoles going away. Neither Playstation or Xbox... and I cannot fathom why people think this is going to happen. SOMEONE would pick up the Playstation brand if Sony went under, as its obviously hugely successful. The Xbox brand isnt going anywhere, either, as it is way more popular than alot of people want to give it credit for, its just overshadowed by the even larger success of the PS4. Plus, I read that Microsoft has a RESERVE of something to the tune of 70-80 BILLION, just sitting there for a rainy day. They have it in their minds that the Xbox is here to stay, and unless THEY decide otherwise, it will.

I switched over from the PC to consoles looooong ago, but ultimately, I started on a console. The Atari 2600, followed by the NES were my first consoles. I feel reasonably sure that the numbers of people that prefer consoles are staggering, and wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

Someone buying the Playstation actually seems pretty logical.

And the Xbox brand being sunk came from Microsoft themselves. They said "If this doesn't turn a significant profit, we will shut down the whole division" you see, Microsoft Game Studios has NEVER made a profit. Ever. And all the Microsoft investors are furious and have hated Microsoft's refusal to cut it off since it was made. The Xbone would need to do a fuckload better then it has to beat the 360 and even cover its losses.

Sure, they are in business to make money, absolutely. My point is that I think they have a much longer term vision than what we are thinking, and ultimately they most definitely can make it turn a profit. That is on them, and the decisions they choose to make, in the end. So far, they have made some good decisions, and they have made some bad decisions. But they decided they wanted to make a mark in the gaming business, and after investing as much as they have in it, I dont see them stopping, not unless it was bleeding so badly that it seriously affected their bottom line, which its not. Microsoft are the only ones that know the real answer to that, obviously, and anything else is just speculation. Good for discussion and all, I guess. I will keep playing my xbox and enjoying it, and hopefully I will be able to continue to do so. I made an investment in the xbox lineup, and most certainly wouldnt have if I felt they were going to go under.

james.sponge:
[quote="fix-the-spade" post="7.860894.21404953"]So, what's going to happen to Playstation in the next five years if Sony can't turn things around?

It would be bizarre if after all that noise about Microsoft dropping Xbox it ends with Sony being the ones forced to spin off Playstation (or if Playstation is the only thing worth picking up when the vultures circle).

Playstation fans need to prepare for a possible scenario in which MS will acquire Sony gaming division :D

I had never considered that, at all. But I think Microsoft would have the money to certainly tempt Sony.

That said, just like a scenario with either console going under, is a very bad thing for us as gamers and consumers. I do not want to see Microsoft buy Playstation and get a monopoly on things, because then we would lose our biggest weapon... choice.

Choice is what made Microsoft reverse some terrible decisions, and I as an avid Xbox gamer, am very thankful for that indeed. A similar situation happened with the launch of the PS3, and playstation fans should thank Xbox for helping the PS3 straighten up, too.

The console wars are great and all, but people need to look at the silver lining. The competition between these two is a win-win for BOTH Xbox fans and Playstation fans. I hope they continue, so we can continue to reap the benefits.... so lets hope a Microsoft buyout of Playstation never happens.

Casual Shinji:

SonOfVoorhees:
Its the reason why the PS4 is just like the PS3 but more powerful - they couldnt risk bringing out something different as they would be in even more debt.

I'd argue against that since the gaming division seems to be the only place where they actually learned their lesson a bit. They made a system that's easier to develop for -- none of this Cell architecture -- and doesn't cost (as much of) a shitton of money at launch. They sold the systems practically on 'Look, we're not as much of a shitbag this time around'.

And seriously, what next-gen console isn't just the last system, but more powerful (apart from the Wii)?

Sony couldnt do anything too different - like Nintendo did with the Wii or like the rubbish MS wanted to do originally with the XB1. Even Sony said if the PS4 failed then there would be no PS5. But also alot of what you wrote is true about what they learnt from the PS3. But they have done a great job with the PS4 - cant imagine a next gen without a Play Station being one of them.

The sad thing is that Xperia Z2 is actually easily one of the two best handsets so far this year. But its completely unavailable to 85% of US cellular custoemrs. To say nothing of the stranglehold Samsung on the US android market. The way things are this year if it doesn't have the word Galaxy in front of it the sales are going to be disappointing.

Man, at this rate Sony is going to drop every division except Playstation. The dropped their PC department, phones seems to be next, the TV sector isn't doing very good and who knows how their financial services are fairing. It's kinda sad a major electronics juggernaut is dying thanks to some bad decisions that could have been reverses within a couple years if they noticed them.

Their main problem is they're practically a luxury brand. Computers, TVs, home and car stereos, phones and even game systems (early PS3, and Vita *cough*too much emphasis on touchscreens and touchpads drove up the price when the second analog was all we asked for*cough*) all were too expensive for what they did. And like qwagor above me stated, other companies filled the missing market with less expensive products that were comparable in quality as Sony's. Especially in this recession, few are willing to pay extra for a PC that a Dell or Compaq beats in price and maybe performance or pay oodles more for a TV when Samsung, LG and even Vizio have made names for themselves as good TV manufacturers. That higher end mentality and the T-Mobile stupidity are what's killing them. Apple only gets away with that because their Macs and icrap have become cultural statements to many people who own them. Their PC division has basically been a side project since they realized early the power of smart phones, media players and media sales.

Who the heck thought it would be a good idea to go T-mobile exclusive?! *sigh*

Even if the tech were as superior as the iPhone was back in 2007 (not likely), it wouldn't make sense to pick the smallest company as an exclusive.

Sooo.. Remind me again how badly "doomed" Nintendo is?

On the less snarky side this sucks. Sony usually has the most lauded electronics, but I suppose praise doesn't sell their products.

So, there's no way anyone at Sony, say, an accountant with a calculator, could have spotted this trend, oh, eleven months ago? If a venture loses two hundred million dollars in one month, and then loses another two hundred million dollars the next month, a sensible person would expect at about that time for alarm bells to start ringing and red light to start flashing, not for associated parties just to keep watching until it's lost two billion two hundred million dollars. Sony is a big boy now. There is no excuse for soiling the trousers at this point.

I don't have a smart phone at all, but I like the look of the Casio hardened case model.

Riff Moonraker:

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

Riff Moonraker:

I just cannot agree on this. I simply do not see the consoles going away. Neither Playstation or Xbox... and I cannot fathom why people think this is going to happen. SOMEONE would pick up the Playstation brand if Sony went under, as its obviously hugely successful. The Xbox brand isnt going anywhere, either, as it is way more popular than alot of people want to give it credit for, its just overshadowed by the even larger success of the PS4. Plus, I read that Microsoft has a RESERVE of something to the tune of 70-80 BILLION, just sitting there for a rainy day. They have it in their minds that the Xbox is here to stay, and unless THEY decide otherwise, it will.

I switched over from the PC to consoles looooong ago, but ultimately, I started on a console. The Atari 2600, followed by the NES were my first consoles. I feel reasonably sure that the numbers of people that prefer consoles are staggering, and wont be going anywhere anytime soon.

Someone buying the Playstation actually seems pretty logical.

And the Xbox brand being sunk came from Microsoft themselves. They said "If this doesn't turn a significant profit, we will shut down the whole division" you see, Microsoft Game Studios has NEVER made a profit. Ever. And all the Microsoft investors are furious and have hated Microsoft's refusal to cut it off since it was made. The Xbone would need to do a fuckload better then it has to beat the 360 and even cover its losses.

Sure, they are in business to make money, absolutely. My point is that I think they have a much longer term vision than what we are thinking, and ultimately they most definitely can make it turn a profit. That is on them, and the decisions they choose to make, in the end. So far, they have made some good decisions, and they have made some bad decisions. But they decided they wanted to make a mark in the gaming business, and after investing as much as they have in it, I dont see them stopping, not unless it was bleeding so badly that it seriously affected their bottom line, which its not. Microsoft are the only ones that know the real answer to that, obviously, and anything else is just speculation. Good for discussion and all, I guess. I will keep playing my xbox and enjoying it, and hopefully I will be able to continue to do so. I made an investment in the xbox lineup, and most certainly wouldnt have if I felt they were going to go under.

No, what I'm saying is, they've been made out as too frigging slow in their supposed vision and the whole division is up for the axe. They are running out of damn time to achieve their vision, and have blown an obscene amount of money on completely unprofitable decisions that ended up gaining nothing. And the thing what everyone is missing is, their rampant spending DOES actually matter. While the company could do it all day without even going into a financial low thanks to how rich they are, the gaming division absolutely MUST make its money back by the end of the generation.

Whether or not it appears profitable in a supposed generation 9 of consoles, Microsoft is giving in to its investors because ALL they have seen is extremely rampant spending for literally no gain. And honestly, if you have a division which now has a like 13 year track record of losing billions of dollars for a company and never turning a profit at any point, they have the bloody right to influence your decision. Whether or not they have sunk too much money into it, everyone at Microsoft is saying "Enough is enough".

This is re-great-table:
Sooo.. Remind me again how badly "doomed" Nintendo is?

On the less snarky side this sucks. Sony usually has the most lauded electronics, but I suppose praise doesn't sell their products.

What I don't understand is how every company is apparently "failing." Sony is losing billions. Nintendo is apparently beyond saving. Microsoft is falling far short of its goals.

I kind of wonder what the truth really is here, since every company is breaing records, and yet their all losing money.

Fox12:

I kind of wonder what the truth really is here, since every company is breaing records, and yet their all losing money.

In Sony's case it's more because of their other divisions failing, while only a few of them are really doing well. The Playstation division really pulled up from how it launched last gen, but at the same time the handling of the Vita hasn't been very good. Meanwhile, their other divisions are pulling them down. Really some of this should have been and could have been prevented years ago, but it wasn't and now the repercussions are strong. Sony's big problem is their pricing for one, as their TVs are really good quality but are way too expensive to buy or repair when compared to competitors, which is how Samsung pulled ahead with Smart TVs. Their limiting of their cellphones, which many say are good, is downright stupid; I mean in all honesty, I don't know a single person at my work or in my group of college friends who use T-Mobile. Their music division still has the problem the entire music industry really has now: they never adapted and accepted .mp3 format when it started.

Really, they overreached too much and spread out to far and into too many fields for them to manage. What really helped topple Rome over in the past, it was because their nation was too large to manage effectively, and Sony's in that predicament now. Will they die, no because they've still got fallbacks, but I expect them to downsize quite a bit over time which could be good or bad. We don't know yet, but hopefully they'll be fine. Honestly, I expect Samsung to be in this same situation sometime in the future because they are basically following in the same footsteps Sony did back in the day. Whether that takes 5, 10, or 20 years though we don't know.

In Nintendo's case, yeah they've got money in the bank to last them, but their handling of the Wii U at launch up until about this point has been terrible. They had a similar problem with the 3DS when it launched at it's obscenely high price. But when the 3DS was stable, Nintendo didn't focus on the Wii U and kept pumping more and more out on the 3DS, ignoring the Wii U for quite some time. Now they are finally focusing on the Wii U, but it's too late for it to be the number one seller this generation and it will most likely be the next GameCube in all honesty. Plus, their lack of creating cohesive and informative advertising has been a huge downfall on their part entirely, along with their naming convention. Many people were, and still are, confused about the Wii U due to the naming, and with things like the "New 3DS" it's only gonna get worse if they don't competently advertise. Same goes for games, as I don't think I need to mention how badly Wonderful 101 did when it had basically no advertising. Now Smash Bros just reported hitting 1 million in 2 days, but that's because Smash Bros is both a) a known franchise with a large fanbase and b) received good advertising in Japan. Wonderful 101 on the other hand was a new, exclusive IP for the Wii U, had practically no advertising at all, and was a complete financial failure because of it, despite the game being a lot of fun (bought it launch day).

Microsoft in their case don't really seem to care about how much money they really spend on things, which can be quite concerning at times. While I don't really mind them buying Mojang, I think that 2.5 billion is still way too damn much to spend on the company to buy it. They will continue to spend ludicrous amounts as well until their other divisions don't bring in as much, which may eventually happen. As someone above mentioned, Microsoft's constant attempts to go into over-saturated markets so late hasn't really been the most successful thing for them in the past. Not to mention, shareholders and investors have much more power and say in how Microsoft functions than for both Nintendo and Sony.

All in all, every one of the major console companies have made mistakes that are either biting them in the ass now, or will possibly do so in the future. The money isn't infinite, and Sony's financial problems should show that being the case. Now do I want any company to "drop out" or "go out of business"? Hell no, and no one should want that. The drop out of a major competitor would be felt all over the industry because all 3 console manufacturers have such large market shares in general. When SEGA dropped out, they were already replaced by Sony's Playstation brand, which is why the effects of a major console manufacturer weren't felt too much. With Atari, SEGA and mainly Nintendo had already replaced them so it wasn't too much. But now, I don't think there are many companies that would easily take any gap left if any of the 3 dropped out.

10 years from now, will there just be no consoles? Starting to sound possible. Companies can't just keep losing money year after year back to back. Eventually, that = going out of business.

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