Joss Whedon: Tony Stark as Ultron's Creator "More Interesting"

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Joss Whedon: Tony Stark as Ultron's Creator "More Interesting"

ultron5

Joss Whedon believes that Tony Stark being Ultron's creator will make more sense for the Marvel cinematic universe than sticking with Hank Pym.

Easily the most remarkable thing about Marvel's cinematic universe has been its faithfulness to the source material. While there have obviously been some deviations, the movies have managed to recreate the stories and characters from the comics in a way that would have seemed unimaginable even just a few years ago. That being said, there have still been a few alterations that have been received less than well by Marvel fans. The origins of Ultron in Avengers 2, for instance, has been a point of particular ire for many Marvel readers.

Whereas in the comics Ultron was created by Hank Pym, in Avengers 2 he'll be a product of Tony Stark. According to director Joss Whedon, this modification to the villain's story has been one of the "bigger" things he's been criticized for in relation to his work on the MCU. "Of all the heat I've ever taken, not having Hank Pym was one of the bigger things. But the fact of the matter was, [Edgar Wright] had him first and by virtue of what Edgar was doing, there was no way for me to use him in [Age of Ultron]."

Beyond that, Whedon also expressed his belief that maintaining Pym as the creator of Ultron wouldn't have been as good for the story in Age of Ultron as switching over to Tony Stark. "Ultron needs to be the brainchild of the Avengers, and in the world of the Avengers and the MCU, Tony Stark is that guy," he explained. "It didn't make sense to introduce a third scientist, a third sciencetician, to do that. It was hard for me, because I grew up on the comics, to dump that, but at the end of the day, it's a more interesting relationship between Tony and Ultron if Tony was once like, 'You know what would be a really great idea?' They're doing what they always do - which is jump in headfirst, and then go, 'Sorry, world!' But you have to make it their responsibility without just making it their fault."

Speaking personally, I very much agree with Whedon's sentiments. While it would have been nice to give Ultron the same creation story in the comics, I don't think it'd be worth it if it meant shoehorning Hank Pym in when his character hasn't been given a chance to really establish himself as an interesting figure in Marvel's film universe. If it builds a better narrative to put Tony Stark in the role of Ultron's sire, then that's where he should be.

Source: Empire

Permalink

Makes perfect sense to me. Perhaps Pym would have made sense if Ant-Man already come out and been a success, but since it hasn't hasn't, it's a lot more satisfying to have the threat flow from the themes and characters that have already been established. And even then, Stark is clearly the "robotics guy" of the series, so Ultron does flow a bit more logically from him.

It's called adaption people. Things gets changed to fit the adaption and the constraints of the new media. You wouldn't expect a true film adaption of a Final Fantasy game to cover every event in the game, but only the most important plot points and characters. I doubt they could even cover everything in a CoD game, honestly.

Plus, Ant Man hasn't really been introduced, yet. The first Avengers movie worked excellently because they didn't have to establish any of the characters and we could just jump in and have some fun with them. Having to introduce and establish a new character and then Ultron would probably add 30 minutes to the run time of what I suspect will be a fairly long movie.

Besides, Tony Stark does make more sense than Hank Pym. At least from what has been established in the cinematic universe. Tony is the tech guy.

It makes sense in the MCU because of the timeline, but that is it. Pym was one of the greatest minds of the Marvel Universe. Bruce Banner has been reduced to a doctor who knows about Gamma Radiation and that's it (not shown to be a man who is actually significantly smarter and more talented than Tony Stark could ever be). Reed Richards is stuck in Foxland. And even though they have Hank Pym as an option, they instead go with Tony Stark, who is a fun character but not all that interesting on a deeper level. They aren't doing anything with Amadeus Cho either, who may have them all beat out in intelligence.

Whedon's reasoning is completely sound. I approve.

I prefer a joint creation by both as it explains his warped sensibility and why he has weapons.

This is reason #87 for why it sucks that Iron Man 2 was made in the release slot Ant-Man was supposed to be originally made for. I honestly wonder how things would have played out differently with that one change to the original phase one plan being kept. Appart from meaning there'd only have been two Iron Man movies out of three so far, there's also the fact that Black Widow and Halwkeye would not have been in The Avengers. After that it just gets impossible to speculate, but it's hard to imagine things overall being worst due to Iron Man 2 not being made.

I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

I hadn't even thought about that, would be a great way to introduce one stone.
Then again we have no idea how many Thanos already has in his posession?

On Topic:
Agreeing with Wheedon here, it doesn't really matter (to me at least) who creates teh defence drone that goes berserk. Of course it cant be Cap or Thor but from the ones excisting in the MCU at the moment, Stark/Banner combination is the best shout, for me at least.

Zontar:
This is reason #87 for why it sucks that Iron Man 2 was made in the release slot Ant-Man was supposed to be originally made for. I honestly wonder how things would have played out differently with that one change to the original phase one plan being kept. Appart from meaning there'd only have been two Iron Man movies out of three so far, there's also the fact that Black Widow and Halwkeye would not have been in The Avengers. After that it just gets impossible to speculate, but it's hard to imagine things overall being worst due to Iron Man 2 not being made.

Hawkeye was in Thor so I don't see why he wouldn't be in The Avengers.

OT: It's just the nature of adaptation as what has been said, and the only other candidate Bruce Banner doesn't seem all that keen on making weapons other than buffing himself up for rather self-explanatory reasons.

Evonisia:

Hawkeye was in Thor so I don't see why he wouldn't be in The Avengers.

With how little he was in Thor, it's possible they just wrote him in between when they learned Ant-Man was being pushed back and when they made the movie. He wasn't consequential to the plot, and hell with what he did in The Avengers it almost seems like he was written in in Hank's place. Add Black Widow taking Wasp's place and their interactions take a pretty different meaning when you realize it was probably written for a married couple.

My only problem with this is that Marvel is still coming out with an Ant-Man movie. Even with Hank taking on a mentor role, thats still some major character development thats being shifted around.

The attachment to Ultron was one of the most interesting dynamics Hank Pym had. With that gone, they'll need to go with more than a simple passing of the torch story to make me care about the character and their history.

It would be interesting had they made the Ant-Man before the Avengers film since he was the fonder member in the comic. Still I can't help to feel even if they had done that Ultron origin would still be different due to the dark stuff that happened to Pym after he create Ultron (slap his wife and almost commit suicide)!

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

The_Blue_Rider:

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

I think the last will turn out to be the Eye of Agamotto as a way of bringing in Doctor Strange. I am not a big fan of the fact that Loki's staff is one of the six. Thanos wants all six yet he gives one of them to someone else. Even if it was just a loan I don't think he would have trusted Loki with one.

OT:
Never the biggest fan of Hank Pym (and no it is not just because of the Wife thing) so I am ok with the change tho I think it would have been better if it had been Banner and only Banner. His way of trying to make up for the bad stuff Hulk has done just going completly tits up.

The_Blue_Rider:
We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

I have to doubt the veracity of that statement. In Guardians, it showed the colours of all six stones and the (only) blue one is the Tesseract. Leaving the Yellow, Orange and Green stones unaccounted for. Besides, I doubt Thanos would willingly give up one of the very artifacts he has sought, even on something as a guaranteed win of conquering Earth.

008Zulu:

The_Blue_Rider:
We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

I have to doubt the veracity of that statement. In Guardians, it showed the colours of all six stones and the (only) blue one is the Tesseract. Leaving the Yellow, Orange and Green stones unaccounted for. Besides, I doubt Thanos would willingly give up one of the very artifacts he has sought, even on something as a guaranteed win of conquering Earth.

It would have been better if the stone in the scepter was green, yellow or orange, but considering that the staff appeared in the Infinity War teaser trailer, I would say that it is pretty much confirmed at this point. Besides, if another infinity stone was at stake, I'm pretty sure that Thanos would use one of his greatest tools to try an obtain it, even if he was, and did, take a huge risk.

StewShearer:
Joss Whedon: Tony Stark as Ultron's Creator "More Interesting"

ultron5

Joss Whedon believes that Tony Stark being Ultron's creator will make more sense for the Marvel cinematic universe than sticking with Hank Pym.

Easily the most remarkable thing about Marvel's cinematic universe has been its faithfulness to the source material. While there have obviously been some deviations, the movies have managed to recreate the stories and characters from the comics in a way that would have seemed unimaginable even just a few years ago. That being said, there have still been a few alterations that have been received less than well by Marvel fans. The origins of Ultron in Avengers 2, for instance, has been a point of particular ire for many Marvel readers.

Whereas in the comics Ultron was created by Hank Pym, in Avengers 2 he'll be a product of Tony Stark. According to director Joss Whedon, this modification to the villain's story has been one of the "bigger" things he's been criticized for in relation to his work on the MCU. "Of all the heat I've ever taken, not having Hank Pym was one of the bigger things. But the fact of the matter was, [Edgar Wright] had him first and by virtue of what Edgar was doing, there was no way for me to use him in [Age of Ultron]."

Beyond that, Whedon also expressed his belief that maintaining Pym as the creator of Ultron wouldn't have been as good for the story in Age of Ultron as switching over to Tony Stark. "Ultron needs to be the brainchild of the Avengers, and in the world of the Avengers and the MCU, Tony Stark is that guy," he explained. "It didn't make sense to introduce a third scientist, a third sciencetician, to do that. It was hard for me, because I grew up on the comics, to dump that, but at the end of the day, it's a more interesting relationship between Tony and Ultron if Tony was once like, 'You know what would be a really great idea?' They're doing what they always do - which is jump in headfirst, and then go, 'Sorry, world!' But you have to make it their responsibility without just making it their fault."

Speaking personally, I very much agree with Whedon's sentiments. While it would have been nice to give Ultron the same creation story in the comics, I don't think it'd be worth it if it meant shoehorning Hank Pym in when his character hasn't been given a chance to really establish himself as an interesting figure in Marvel's film universe. If it builds a better narrative to put Tony Stark in the role of Ultron's sire, then that's where he should be.

Source: Empire

Permalink

I skimmed (barely) the news post, so forgive me if I am wrong, but I would like your headlines to contain a little less spoilers if you dont mind. I'm going to watch the next avengers and would like to enter the cinema with as little knowledge as possible. Its no problem avoiding articles about it, its a little more difficult avoiding headlines, especially if they are containing spoilers.

The_Blue_Rider:

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

I'd go so far as to suggest that Thanos has to already have one considering that he's taken up this quest and that he is considered a powerful being in the Universe. If he had truly been coveting them and they were just lying around (say...in an abandoned ruin on a random planet completely unprotected) but he didn't have any, that would call into question his capabilities.

I know they've come out and said that the Mind Stone was in Loki's staff, but why the heck would Thanos give it to him? Does not make sense...

I agree with the reasoning, however, when I mentioned Avengers 2 to my mother, she went online and found a plot summary and the first words out of her mouth where "Oh so Tony Stark is screwing up again." She immediately lost all interest in the film. Ultron is a wonderful screw up for Tony Stark and makes perfect sense, but Tony Stark has screwed up a few times already and him screwing up again lessens the impact.

In that case, maybe it would have been a better idea to have somebody else screwing up instead.

I'm entirely okay with this. Introducing Pym at this particular intersection wouldn't lend any particular emotional weight or responsibility to Ultron's origin. With a few exceptions, Whedon seems to know what he's doing; I think that's probably the case here.

Also, I'm still less than certain the Ant-Man movie isn't going to be the new Marvel cinematic universe's first actual stumble, so anchoring oneself to it, even in a relatively intangible way, probably wouldn't be the best call.

ricree:
Makes perfect sense to me. Perhaps Pym would have made sense if Ant-Man already come out and been a success, but since it hasn't hasn't, it's a lot more satisfying to have the threat flow from the themes and characters that have already been established. And even then, Stark is clearly the "robotics guy" of the series, so Ultron does flow a bit more logically from him.

Yeah, Stark actually does make sense here. I agree with Whedon on this pretty fully.

Eclipse Dragon:
I agree with the reasoning, however, when I mentioned Avengers 2 to my mother, she went online and found a plot summary and the first words out of her mouth where "Oh so Tony Stark is screwing up again." She immediately lost all interest in the film. Ultron is a wonderful screw up for Tony Stark and makes perfect sense, but Tony Stark has screwed up a few times already and him screwing up again lessens the impact.

In that case, maybe it would have been a better idea to have somebody else screwing up instead.

and technically Tony screws up during civil war as well (even if he is kinda-sorta right)

Aggieknight:

The_Blue_Rider:

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

I'd go so far as to suggest that Thanos has to already have one considering that he's taken up this quest and that he is considered a powerful being in the Universe. If he had truly been coveting them and they were just lying around (say...in an abandoned ruin on a random planet completely unprotected) but he didn't have any, that would call into question his capabilities.

I know they've come out and said that the Mind Stone was in Loki's staff, but why the heck would Thanos give it to him? Does not make sense...

It is also possible that Thanos didn't know about the stones + gauntlet yet. The mind gem on it's own might not have been all that useful to a guy who could make others do what he wants through shear strength. It's possible he learned of a source of immense energy and instantaneous transportation from Red Skull and just wanted that. It would mesh with the comics where he comes to earth the first time specifically for the power of the Cosmic Cube (the 6 infinity Gems having not appeared in the comics until the second Thanos war storyline).

In the movie, it could then be that he learned of the 6 stones and their true importance when the Collector put out the bounty on them (and possibly gauntlet) after getting the Aether at the end of Thor The Dark World, setting up the Guardians movie where Thanos is now seen hunting them.

I like it. I like the Ultron character better if his brain is a carbon copy of Pym's messed up head. But, I'll survive if he is simply the product of some messed-up programming.

Thanos has a gem already? Maybe. If he wants the gems, why doesn't he just get up out of his floaty rock chair and go get them. He wiped out his entire moon population. He dated the Grim Reaper. Spend 10 minutes and go get your glowy rocks, ya deadbeat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0K436vUM4w

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

I thought we had seen 4? Hmmm?
Cube = Space gem
Aether = reality Gem
Orb = Power Gem
Blue Egg Shaped gem in Loki's scepter = Mind Gem (not 100% confirmed, but enough hints and logical connections at this point.)

With the betting money being the Soul Gem will appear in or more likely turn out to be The Eye of Agamoto in Dr. Strange. The Time Gem remains any bodies guess. Although it could open up some possibilities involving or following up on Civil War. In the comics the Captain America Civil War story arc involved some Dr. Doom time machine tech. Since Doom is not an option it would make sense. Plus Captain America is the time lost or out of time character, so the more likely to play with the Time theme as something other than a cheap Star Trek story.

faefrost:

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

I thought we had seen 4? Hmmm?
Cube = Space gem
Aether = reality Gem
Orb = Power Gem
Blue Egg Shaped gem in Loki's scepter = Mind Gem (not 100% confirmed, but enough hints and logical connections at this point.)

With the betting money being the Soul Gem will appear in or more likely turn out to be The Eye of Agamoto in Dr. Strange. The Time Gem remains any bodies guess. Although it could open up some possibilities involving or following up on Civil War. In the comics the Captain America Civil War story arc involved some Dr. Doom time machine tech. Since Doom is not an option it would make sense. Plus Captain America is the time lost or out of time character, so the more likely to play with the Time theme as something other than a cheap Star Trek story.

My guess is the Time Gem will involve Kang the Conqueror in some way.

Aggieknight:

The_Blue_Rider:

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

We've actually seen 4, they confirmed not too long ago that Lokis staff from The Avengers contained an infinity stone (Im assuming its the Mind stone because of the brainwashing stuff). Id bet that one of the last remaining stones will be in Wakanda in Black Panther, no idea when the last stone will appear though. Its entirely possible that Thanos already has one

I'd go so far as to suggest that Thanos has to already have one considering that he's taken up this quest and that he is considered a powerful being in the Universe. If he had truly been coveting them and they were just lying around (say...in an abandoned ruin on a random planet completely unprotected) but he didn't have any, that would call into question his capabilities.

I know they've come out and said that the Mind Stone was in Loki's staff, but why the heck would Thanos give it to him? Does not make sense...

It makes perfect sense. He leveraged and gambled one stone to gain another. He knows where the mind stone is. He can get it back at any time. Thanos is a grand chess player. Just as he knows where the Aether is and can get it at any time. Remember in Thor 2 they hinted that it is dangerous to keep them together. He is getting the stones found and putting them in places where he can reach when he is ready for them.

Ukomba:

faefrost:

008Zulu:
I wonder if Ultron will be powered by an Infinity stone? There's six in the collection, and we have only seen three so far.

I thought we had seen 4? Hmmm?
Cube = Space gem
Aether = reality Gem
Orb = Power Gem
Blue Egg Shaped gem in Loki's scepter = Mind Gem (not 100% confirmed, but enough hints and logical connections at this point.)

With the betting money being the Soul Gem will appear in or more likely turn out to be The Eye of Agamoto in Dr. Strange. The Time Gem remains any bodies guess. Although it could open up some possibilities involving or following up on Civil War. In the comics the Captain America Civil War story arc involved some Dr. Doom time machine tech. Since Doom is not an option it would make sense. Plus Captain America is the time lost or out of time character, so the more likely to play with the Time theme as something other than a cheap Star Trek story.

My guess is the Time Gem will involve Kang the Conqueror in some way.

That would make sense. I would love to see Kang realized visually (although in the comics he always makes my head hurt.) if Kang is in play then the Time Gem will likely show up in GotG 2 and or Captain Marvel. Kang opens the door for the Kree / "Chitauri" war and the Celestial Madona story arc. And Mantis is really better known as a Guardian these days than as an Avenger.

ecoho:
I prefer a joint creation by both as it explains his warped sensibility and why he has weapons.

I can just imagine the conversation between Tony and Hank...

TS: Hey Hank, so I am thinking about working on another AI

HP: Sounds fun, I'd be glad to help.

(Several weeks later)

TS: Finally finished, welcome to the Avengers.

HP: Thanks Tony, shall we turn Ultron on?

TS: You can do the honors.

*Click*

HP: Uh, Tony. Did you give Ultron red eyes?

TS: No, why?

HP: No reason, oh I have just remembered something. I have an ... appointment to get to. Bye!

Laggyteabag:
[quote="008Zulu" post="7.871201.21839911"]It would have been better if the stone in the scepter was green, yellow or orange, but considering that the staff appeared in the Infinity War teaser trailer, I would say that it is pretty much confirmed at this point. Besides, if another infinity stone was at stake, I'm pretty sure that Thanos would use one of his greatest tools to try an obtain it, even if he was, and did, take a huge risk.

Then it's proof as an Infinity stone would be absolute. But Thanos' mastery of science and technology makes Stark (and Asgard) look like children with their first Lego set. Building something such as the mind control scepter would have been an easy goal.

faefrost:
[quote="008Zulu" post="7.871201.21839654"]
I thought we had seen 4? Hmmm?
Cube = Space gem
Aether = reality Gem
Orb = Power Gem
Blue Egg Shaped gem in Loki's scepter = Mind Gem (not 100% confirmed, but enough hints and logical connections at this point.)

6 stones, six different colours. The blue stone is the Tesseract. The staff can't be one.

I'm not a Marvel comics fanboy, so who created Ultron is immaterial to me, but Joss's argument is flawed.
It makes the assumption that Avengers 2 was required to have Ultron in it (which I guess might have been a Marvel Studios mandate).

But wouldn't it have just made sense to hold him over for another film once Hank Pym had been introduced?
I always assumed Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet was going to be the plot line for Avengers 2. It was teased enough. How long are they going to drag out that story line?

Seriously, the first stone was introduced four years ago already. Casual audience might get a bit lost.

I'm basically on board with this whole thing with one caveat.

I think it's worth Marvel trying to limit the amount of significance that Tony Stark has in the Avengers universe (I also hope that Agent Carter's future seasons aren't too Howard-technology heavy) since they've only got like three or four more films with him in it.

The Avengers in the MCU has still yet to feel like the team is important over and above the members of that team

I'm not that worried about this I'm reasonably confident have Marvel have thought alot about the transitional phase. We'll see

He's completely right. The MCU has 2 hours every few years, not a monthly 20 pages. Mainstream audiences will not get what the hell is happening, it's better to let it happen in the quite small environment already put in place than to let it explode all over the place. And besides, Tony is the fulcrum around which the MCU has turned, both in story and exposure/revenue.

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