Star Citizen Backer Gets $2,500 Refund

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

Floppertje:

Laughing Man:

Most of what media sites write about Star Citizen is negative, so it's a smart move to update the terms of service for this exact reason. If people get the idea of getting back their money for whatever reason, they might start doing it in large waves, royally fucking over the project.

Is it? seems like a bit of a dick move to be honest, you paid for us to release this product in this time frame, we have altered the product by such a margin that it is no longer

a). the product you originally signed up for
b). ever going to release on the agreed upon date

so we're going to change the TOS removing the only thing that gave you any come back and then hold the game you paid for to ransom until you agree to them.

I am wondering if the statement about him not agreeing to those terms is a passing statement, as in when I bought in to this game I never agreed to THOSE terms I agreed to the terms originally posted. I.e he still clicked the I agree button to the new TOS because CIG being total dicks wouldn't let him play his game unless he did. Or if he really did stop playing totally so that he didn't have to click the 'i agree' button because if it's the former then CIG could be truly fucked, anyone who pledged before they updated the TOS could now ask for a refund and be entitled to it weather they agreed to the new TOS or not and I imagine they made a large amount of their cash during that initial period.

kickstarter is a donation service not a store.

and I think we can all agree that what is going on with SC has gone well beyond being a simple Kickstarter donation service.

People always seem to forget that when they saw that they were going to WAY overshoot their original target fundraising by a factor of 10, they ASKED backers if they wanted to continue with stretch goals and expand the scope of the game, and the backers overwhelmingly said yes. You can't agree to that and then complain that the game is not reaching the original deadline.

Backers =/= single person. Its silly to assume that EVERYONE wanted to expand on the original plans.

munx13:

Floppertje:

Laughing Man:

Is it? seems like a bit of a dick move to be honest, you paid for us to release this product in this time frame, we have altered the product by such a margin that it is no longer

a). the product you originally signed up for
b). ever going to release on the agreed upon date

so we're going to change the TOS removing the only thing that gave you any come back and then hold the game you paid for to ransom until you agree to them.

I am wondering if the statement about him not agreeing to those terms is a passing statement, as in when I bought in to this game I never agreed to THOSE terms I agreed to the terms originally posted. I.e he still clicked the I agree button to the new TOS because CIG being total dicks wouldn't let him play his game unless he did. Or if he really did stop playing totally so that he didn't have to click the 'i agree' button because if it's the former then CIG could be truly fucked, anyone who pledged before they updated the TOS could now ask for a refund and be entitled to it weather they agreed to the new TOS or not and I imagine they made a large amount of their cash during that initial period.

and I think we can all agree that what is going on with SC has gone well beyond being a simple Kickstarter donation service.

People always seem to forget that when they saw that they were going to WAY overshoot their original target fundraising by a factor of 10, they ASKED backers if they wanted to continue with stretch goals and expand the scope of the game, and the backers overwhelmingly said yes. You can't agree to that and then complain that the game is not reaching the original deadline.

Backers =/= single person. Its silly to assume that EVERYONE wanted to expand on the original plans.

And he had years to object. This 18 month thing people keep spewing doesn't mean what people think it does. If you actually read the section it says " However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time." This means the estimated release date changes. The 18 month thing was meant to cover pledges for specific ships. The inclusion of the phrase "unearned portion of your Pledge" confirms this.

munx13:

Floppertje:
snip

Backers =/= single person. Its silly to assume that EVERYONE wanted to expand on the original plans.

true, not everyone did. But that works both ways. Like when you say "... the product evolves into something you don't want anymore. For many Star Citizen fans, the latter has become true, ...". Most of them agreed with the extra stretch goals, so they really don't have much of a right to complain. Honestly, since it's a crowdfunded game and it always had the ' stuff will change', I don't think you're entitled to a refund unless it's an obvious scam (and no, contrary to the escapists earlier articles, it isn't.)

First off all I have to say that I have the utmost respect for that guy. He stuck to his guns.
image

Next up of course I'm glad he had success. At least some fairness remains in the world.
I guess he never actually installed or updated the "game". Therefore, he never received the updated ToS and never agreed to it. Lucky him I suppose.

Then CiG: Of course they used a ToS update to swindle customer out of their right for refunds. Nobody really reads the ToS anyway.
I was always highly critical of their fund raising campaign. It was highly exploitive of consumer behaviour. Just another sign that CiG is not trustworthy.
It may have started out in honesty but once SC started to print serious money on promises corporate took over.

SKBPinkie:
That guy was probably not the smartest dude to put so much money into the game.

The poor schmucks who funded Mighty Number Nine probably feel the same.

Ishigami:
snip

Updating the ToS won't help much in a court though, since they don't hold much ground in the first place.

As much as some people would like that, you cant just wave your rights away by clicking a button. The way Steams refund policy was forced to change is a good example.

Mangod:

Someone who's got more knowledge about law than me; isn't it illegal to try and hold Streetroller to a TOS that he never signed?

They tried to make him backoff by his own will, in case he didn't knew they couldn't enforce the new TOS if he didn't agree with it.

Gatlank:

Mangod:

Someone who's got more knowledge about law than me; isn't it illegal to try and hold Streetroller to a TOS that he never signed?

They tried to make him backoff by his own will, in case he didn't knew they couldn't enforce the new TOS if he didn't agree with it.

I understood that much, but I'm asking because I'm not sure how the law works where CIG operates. This sounds to me like it'd be a possible case of fraud, but I'd like someone more familiar with legal matters to weigh in on it.

Gatlank:

Mangod:

Someone who's got more knowledge about law than me; isn't it illegal to try and hold Streetroller to a TOS that he never signed?

They tried to make him backoff by his own will, in case he didn't knew they couldn't enforce the new TOS if he didn't agree with it.

Except even using the Old TOS he wasn't owed anything either. The estimated delivery date changed therefore the 18 months changed. The only reason he got his money back was because he was going to force them to legally defend themselves which would have cost them more money than the 2.5k he wanted back.

I'm still hoping to play it, but luckily all my money is still in my pocket. If it ever gets released in a half-decent state, I'll buy it then.

If nothing else, setting a refund date in your terms of service that ties into your estimated ship date really drives home that you've failed to meet said ship date by over a year and a half.

A less sympathetic judge might well have suggested that such a clause implied that seeking refunds might follow a fair assessment of the final (or at least, times being what they are, [a released]) product... An assessment Star Citizen hasn't really followed through on permitting its backers. And then possibly declare the contract void.

I think RSI may have just shot itself in the foot. It's possible they would have inspired less of a "run on the bank" by confidently saying, "Sure, here's your money back, no hard feelings" than fighting a refund kicking and screaming only to have the Bar Association effectively imply that others might want to get out while the getting is good.

Callate:
If nothing else, setting a refund date in your terms of service that ties into your estimated ship date really drives home that you've failed to meet said ship date by over a year and a half.

A less sympathetic judge might well have suggested that such a clause implied that seeking refunds might follow a fair assessment of the final (or at least, times being what they are, [a released]) product... An assessment Star Citizen hasn't really followed through on permitting its backers. And then possibly declare the contract void.

I think RSI may have just shot itself in the foot. It's possible they would have inspired less of a "run on the bank" by confidently saying, "Sure, here's your money back, no hard feelings" than fighting a refund kicking and screaming only to have the Bar Association effectively imply that others might want to get out while the getting is good.

the 110 million they raised also really drives home that the scope of the game has changed from the 4 million or so it was when they wrote those TOS.

as for your second paragraph, isn't that outside the scope of the lawsuit? Dude just wanted his money back, not for the entire company to be ripped apart. Also, since terms of service aren't legally binding anyway, I'm not sure they count as a contract that can be voided.
and finally; you're not buying anything so you're not entitled to a refund anyway. You can't ask greenpeace for a refund when you think that this climate change that they're trying to stop isn't stopping fast enough...

Dalisclock:

Xsjadoblayde:
"Star citizen fans."

How in the blazes can people be fans for something that is not much more than a name? Fuck...humans frustrate me so bloody much with their incessant stupidity! Or maybe I am just too poor to understand wasting money on future masturbatory promises. Whatever makes them feel better.

Some people really like unicorn burgers and figure the more money they throw at a promised one, the more likely they are to get it.

I see what you did there. Star Citizen's burger is likely extremely heavy on the uncut diamonds.
image

The thing i like most about the star citizen debacle is how gullible the "backers" are...

And how RSI/CIG/whatev is allways accepting more and more "donations" in return for "gifts" and how they keep asking their "backers" to try to recruit new "backers" through friends and family to "support" the game through further "donations" thus receiving even more "gifts"

Heres the deal thought... everything in quotation marks? Weasal words to prevent their CUSTOMERS from having any rights in the matter.

No they are not "backers" anymore, they are customers, no those are not "donations", those are purchases, and those are not "thankyou gifts" that you get in return... those are digital products!

It is crystal clear that they advertise that for a certain amount of money you will get specific products in return. Products that dont exist yet and might not ever exist but its a purchase none the less.

Pay X amount of money, get Y product in exchange (eventually...maybe... hopefully)

And the insane proportion this has taken that has their cultists (oherwise the almost delusional behavior of these "backers" cannot be explained anymore) spend thousands upon thousands with some claiming to have spend 10k + on the game allready is mind boogling... theres even a shadow market where people sell and buy these as of yet nonexistant ingame goods on reddit (with involvement of mods from the official forums none the less) and ponzy schemes to get their "fans" to badger their own friends and families to throw even money at the game. You know... like scientology! Only they dont tell you to abandon your family if they dont pay up (yet)

This whole thing is absolutely insane... a trainwreck of the highest order...

And yet they keep spending money at things like this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDj1Us0M9P_/

Thats a 20k "door" in the CIG offices ladies and gentlemen (take the number with a grain of salt since i found only one source for it)

"Donations" well spend...

Karadalis:
The thing i like most about the star citizen debacle is how gullible the "backers" are...

And how RSI/CIG/whatev is allways accepting more and more "donations" in return for "gifts" and how they keep asking their "backers" to try to recruit new "backers" through friends and family to "support" the game through further "donations" thus receiving even more "gifts"

Heres the deal thought... everything in quotation marks? Weasal words to prevent their CUSTOMERS from having any rights in the matter.

No they are not "backers" anymore, they are customers, no those are not "donations", those are purchases, and those are not "thankyou gifts" that you get in return... those are digital products!

It is crystal clear that they advertise a certain digital good if you give them a certain amount of money... This is a clear cut exchange of money for a product, aka a purchase! A product that doesnt exist yet and might not ever exist but its a purchase none the less.

Pay X amount of money, get Y product in exchange (eventually...maybe... hopefully)

And the insane proportion this has taken has their cultists (oherwise the almost delusional behavior of these "backers" cannot be explained anymore) spend thousands upon thousands with some claiming to have spend 10k + on the game allready is mind boogling... theres even a shadow market where people sell and buy these as of yet nonexistant ingame goods on reddit (with involvement of mods from the official forums none the less) and ponzy schemes to get their "fans" to badger their own friends and families to throw even money at the game.

This whole thing is absolutely insane... a trainwreck of the highest order...

And yet they keep spending money at things like this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDj1Us0M9P_/

Thats a 20k "door" in the CIG offices ladies and gentlemen (take the number with a grain of salt since i found only one source for it)

Donations well spend...

... gotta say, that door seems like the sort of extravaganze you shouldn't afford yourself until after you've succesfully launched your product. What's next? A golden spaceship statue outside their offices?

What the fuck is going on with this game? Seriously!?

All I hear about it is, people have put vast sums of cash into it, the game has generate an ungodly amount, the game is getting bigger and bigger in scope and it's been more delayed than DNF.

Thing is, no mans sky seems and/or EVE seem to be this game ... so, why are people waiting like it's the third coming of half life?

Kotoriii:
What's the ETA for the game release nowadays? 2019, 2020? Will HL3 be released before it? Doesn't sound like the craziest thought.

In the year 2525
If man is still alive...
If woman can survive,
they may fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind....

MCerberus:

Kotoriii:
What's the ETA for the game release nowadays? 2019, 2020? Will HL3 be released before it? Doesn't sound like the craziest thought.

In the year 2525
If man is still alive...
If woman can survive,
they may fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind....

A completly crumbled and ruined building, the only thing still standing.... a 20k$ expensive sci fi door... sause that damn thing better be indestructable at that price

omega 616:
What the fuck is going on with this game? Seriously!?

All I hear about it is, people have put vast sums of cash into it, the game has generate an ungodly amount, the game is getting bigger and bigger in scope and it's been more delayed than DNF.

Thing is, no mans sky seems and/or EVE seem to be this game ... so, why are people waiting like it's the third coming of half life?

No mans sky is turning out more and more to be a complete shallow experience.

Kinda like SPORE.. does anyone remember that? Taking a one cell organism and ending up as a space faring race? Sounded cool in concept but turned out to be a disjointed mess of really shallow mini games

As for EVE:

EVE is not what the people that want Star citizen made are looking for at all.. on one hand you have an action packed space flight sim... on the other you have a pretty looking spreadsheet simulator that is fun to read about.. but not fun to actually play.

Both games have not much in common (kept for the setting of outer space) with what people actually wanted/want from star citizen. People wanted a wing commander type game with a persistant universe... what they aparantly are getting now is a jumbled mess of different gametypes that look awesome on paper.. but history has shown that trying to stuff to many genres into a single game will only lead to disaster... or very shallow experiences.

Roberts has a big mouth, but I very highly doubt this game will live up to the hype, I can see it going down even worse then Mighty No 9 did.

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

Posting on this forum is disabled.