SAG-AFTRA Voice Actors Now on Strike Against a Number of Game Companies

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SAG-AFTRA Voice Actors Now on Strike Against a Number of Game Companies

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The promised SAG-AFTRA video game voice actors strike is now officially underway.

The video game voice actors strike that was threatened last week has officially commenced. The union said last week that it would be trying to reach an agreement, but that it was "not confident" in reaching a resolution.

On its website, SAG-AFTRA says that "A last attempt to reach an agreement with video game employers this week was not successful. Management remains unwilling to agree to fair terms that would bring the interactive contract into the 21st century. Therefore, as of 12:01 a.m. PT today, SAG-AFTRA is on strike against the following video game employers with regard to all games that went into production after Feb. 17, 2015:"

  • Activision Publishing, Inc.
  • Blindlight, LLC
  • Corps of Discovery Films
  • Disney Character Voices, Inc.
  • Electronic Arts Productions, Inc.
  • Formosa Interactive, LLC
  • Insomniac Games, Inc.
  • Interactive Associates, Inc.
  • Take 2 Interactive Software
  • VoiceWorks Productions, Inc.
  • WB Games, Inc.

Earlier this week, Scott J. Witlin, the attorney representing the "coalition of Interactive Video Game Publishing Companies" that is negotiating with SAG-AFTRA, issued a statement saying that,

"We have negotiated in good faith for the past 18 months with SAG-AFTRA union leaders, and are making progress toward a new contract. We are deeply disappointed to learn today of the Union's threatened strike and its unilateral violation of the mutually agreed upon 'news black-out' on negotiation discussions.

We consider the Union's threatened labor action to call a strike precipitous, unnecessary and an action that will only harm their membership. SAG-AFTRA represents performers in less than 25% of the video games on the market. Any strike would not only deny SAG-AFTRA's membership work, but this would also give their competitors, who do not engage union talent, a leg up while any strike would be in place."

In announcing the strike, SAG-AFTRA said that "During a strike, it is critical that all members demonstrate solidarity so that we can present a united front to management. If you work for one of the affected productions, it's your responsibility to honor the strike, but even if you're not, your support is needed." The union also says that it plans to form a picket line outside EA's offices on Monday, October 24.

It remains to be seen how the strike will affect the video games that are currently in production, but Witlin says that the group of companies doesn't expect there to be a major disruption. "We anticipate minimal impact on current and near-future game releases," he said.

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I hope we get to see a gif or video of David Hayter slapping Hideo Kojima on the wrist.

Yeah the voice actors can strike as long as they want the royalties depending on number of games sold will NEVER happen.
The Companies are way to interested in keeping their sales secret.

And Apparently the game companies already offered a 9% wage nc rease and a bonus of up to 950$ per game depending on number of sessions.

Links to the statement of the companies regardings previous made offers:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/video-game-companies-make-9-wage-hike-offer-to-sag-aftra-performers-plus-additional-compensation-300348297.html

Edit: So they represent not even 25% of voice actors?
No wonder they wanted to force everyone to join them.

Oh no, what will I ever do if I don't have to hear the same voice actors doing the same voices for the 800th time?

I fully support the voice actors here. Just like in every other goddamn industry on the planet, the productivity of employees and the profits of the companies have increased exponentially. And the only people getting richer are the top executives. The people that do the least amount of work. Fuck that. Why should they get to keep all the extra cash when they're the ones doing the least amount of work? This is how income inequality works and why the people are pissed.

Unless I am mistaken, they want royalties. Hah! The developers who have spent half a decade slaving over the game don't get royalties, and a half-talented hack who comes in for a three day shooting session wants them?

Good riddance.

And now, a moment of silence...

BuildsLegos:
I hope we get to see a gif or video of David Hayter slapping Hideo Kojima on the wrist.

Interestingly enough no reference of any Japanese Game Companies, especially when it comes to providing and English Dub to American/Western Audiances.

Yeah... no. Pretty much everybody else on the development side deserves royalty before voice actor do. People play game for the gameplay, the story, the competition or the graphic. Very few people play because they heard the game had awesome voice acting, the only game I can think of that could sell itself with that is Bastion and that's a small indie title. VA can just go at the back of the queue, or not, if they strike they'll just be replaced by somebody else, since, again, there pretty expendable.

Meiam:
Yeah... no. Pretty much everybody else on the development side deserves royalty before voice actor do.

Then they should unionize. This is what unions are for. It's not about who deserves something first. It's about who actually stands up to fight for their worker rights. Something like this has a chance to inspire developers to do the same. Especially if voice actors can pull it off. So some support from the actual gamers would be nice.

So what I am seeing is some more room opening up in this industry :p

Adam Jensen:

Meiam:
Yeah... no. Pretty much everybody else on the development side deserves royalty before voice actor do.

Then they should unionize. This is what unions are for. It's not about who deserves something first. It's about who actually stands up to fight for their worker rights. Something like this has a chance to inspire developers to do the same. Especially if voice actors can pull it off. So some support from the actual gamers would be nice.

The question then becomes "How much more are YOU willing to pay for each game?"

As a union man myself, I hope they can settle this. Maybe force an arbitration. Good luck, all.

I say go for it. And as noted in the terms, it's against these specific companies, so not all game companies will be affected. Furthermore, it's not like the companies they're railing against are innocent. We're talking about companies like EA, Activision, Disney, and Take Two, all of them corporations that are worth hundreds of millions if not outright billions. They have more than enough to share with voice actors as well as their own employees. Game companies need to learn a lesson and start acting like they're in the entertainment industry instead of the tech sector.

Funny thing about the "but devs don't get royalties" argument:

It always seems to be used to justify paying voice actors less, but never used to try and pay devs more.

C'mon guys and gals, devs deserve royalties too. Fight for that instead of fighting against royalties for voice actors. Hell, voice actors get royalties for movies, tv shows, and freaking commercials, why are videogames some special snowflake?

Tv and movie writers get royalties. Devs and programmers should totally unionize, and get the royalties they deserve.

Adam Jensen:
So some support from the actual gamers would be nice.

I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, it's true that voice actors get screwed pretty hard - they're considered really replaceable which can kill immersion with franchises when beloved characters suddenly sound completely different. I play FF14 and they changed like 90% of the voice actors when they released Heavensward - I wound up switching my voices to Japanese as a result since many of the actors/actresses were replaced by sub-par copies.

On the other hand, unions sometimes blowhard for the sake of looking good, and the article gives me the feeling that this is one of those times. I'm honestly kind of amazed they even got a nine percent pay raise when their membership isn't even 25% of the industry... though maybe they have the top actors or something.

Quite frankly.

It doesn't seem to affect Guerilla Games (Because Horizon: Zero Dawn), and neither will it affect the PS4 port of Amnesia that will release next month. Meaning that I'm incredibly "meh" about this whole situation.

And the companies it does affect probably wont give a shit, and hire new VA's.

scotth266:

... though maybe they have the top actors or something.

Well they have SOME of the top actors, Jennifer Hale and David Hayter, but not all of them.

Adam Jensen:
Then they should unionize. This is what unions are for.

It's a shame that there is this deeply embedded anti-union mentality in America.

008Zulu:

Adam Jensen:
Then they should unionize. This is what unions are for.

It's a shame that there is this deeply embedded anti-union mentality in America.

It's mostly deserved, union dig there own hole by asking insane retirement plan that are impossible to finance and will saddle the next few generation with worse service and asking for seniority to be the determining factor in promotion and fire order. On top of that it seems like they take a hard stance at protecting every employee, even the incompetent or the downright criminal. I was in an union once a little bit, and it was crap like that that was happening.

If union want to get the respect that they used to garner, a respect that was 100% deserved, they need to clean up and cut the non sense and seems like there part of the solutions rather than a part of the problem that just keep asking for more money.

But considering this union that represent less than 25% of the talent pool, for a job that's pretty easy and within reach of most people, require little training and has negligible influence on the final product is going on strike, I have little hope.

Given what gamers put up with the industry doing to them, I don't think the actors can count on much support from this end. A pity. I hope this works out well, but frankly I don't see that happening.

Meiam:
Yeah... no. Pretty much everybody else on the development side deserves royalty before voice actor do. People play game for the gameplay, the story, the competition or the graphic. Very few people play because they heard the game had awesome voice acting, the only game I can think of that could sell itself with that is Bastion and that's a small indie title. VA can just go at the back of the queue, or not, if they strike they'll just be replaced by somebody else, since, again, there pretty expendable.

Damir Halilovic:
Unless I am mistaken, they want royalties. Hah! The developers who have spent half a decade slaving over the game don't get royalties, and a half-talented hack who comes in for a three day shooting session wants them?

Good riddance.

There's an old Russian folktale that this attitude reminds me of. There were once two farmers, Alexyev and Rabinovich. Both were poor, each having only a single cow, but they were fiercely competitive. One cold winter day, Alexyev's cow died, and, depressed by the realization that he couldn't compete with Rabinovich any longer, he left the village on a long walk. As he approached the partially frozen pond, he saw someone struggling in it, desperately trying to keep from drowning. Alexyev threw the man a rope, pulled him in, and brought him inside to warm him up, only to discover that it was not a man. It was a fairy spirit, who, grateful for Alexyev having saved his life, offered him a wish: anything his heart desired. Alexyev was at first stunned by the news, but then his face split in a huge grin. "I wish Rabinovich's cow was dead!".

So they wanted to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field, or force them to join? Fuck 'em. I think they'll find that they are expendable. In other news, if you ever wanted to enter the industry, then now would be the perfect time to try. At least their harassing EA, though. Fuck EA.

Hey, can Johnny Young Bosch go on strike too? Please?

Adam Jensen:

Meiam:
Yeah... no. Pretty much everybody else on the development side deserves royalty before voice actor do.

Then they should unionize. This is what unions are for. It's not about who deserves something first. It's about who actually stands up to fight for their worker rights. Something like this has a chance to inspire developers to do the same. Especially if voice actors can pull it off. So some support from the actual gamers would be nice.

If the union actually cared about worker rights then they wouldn't have tried throwing 75% of their peers under the bus. They don't care about worker rights. They care about themselves. Let them go back to working at office depot or wherever.

I'm fully behind pretty much everything they've put forward - aside from the residuals. I said the same in the other thread.

And not even as a "the devs don't get residuals either" bint.

Fact is, both the devs and the VAs were paid for the work they performed. Why would they continue to be paid after the work is concluded? That really makes no sense. I'm 100% behind arguing that the pay should be higher - for both parties - but residuals for a completed work doesn't make sense to me.

As for anti-union opinions in the US, as others have said, it's pretty much the union's fault. When unions step into a space and strong arm companies and people in the same field into using union people or none at all, among other unpleasant behaviors, it quickly drains the good will that unions can build up by 'helping those in need'. It also doesn't help when some of the demands come off as straight up greedy, like the residuals part.

If I recall correctly, they rejected an offer for a 9% pay increase (which may potentially be too low, to be fair) - for residuals, which on a major blowout release could net them 4x the work they were actually paid for originally after the fact. Others may disagree, and I feel VAs AND devs should be paid better in general, but the entire framing just feels considerably more greedy. Attempting to lock out non-union VAs (or apparently causing their own problems to the point where union VAs will take non-union jobs under aliases because they couldn't otherwise) and the like is just icing on the anti-union cake in this case.

Edit: As another example: toss in pretty much anything with "the police union" in there, and you can see why the public doesn't really like unions all that much.

God what greedy parasites, wanting to have the same conditions that every other fucking industry voice actors work in the video game industry as well. Don't they know that the publishers need that money!? And what's with them demanding better conditions when devs don't receive some of those benefits? I mean, it's not like this is a union dedicated to voice actors and not devs and thus they have no influence over, or responsibility to, devs.

All that sarcastically said, it's not like I actually believe that anyone bringing up devs actually gives much of a damn about them. After all, if they did they'd advocate for improving the working conditions of developers, not use their bad situation as a reason to deny all others the chance at improved working conditions.

Areloch:
I'm fully behind pretty much everything they've put forward - aside from the residuals. I said the same in the other thread.

And not even as a "the devs don't get residuals either" bint.

Fact is, both the devs and the VAs were paid for the work they performed. Why would they continue to be paid after the work is concluded? That really makes no sense. I'm 100% behind arguing that the pay should be higher - for both parties - but residuals for a completed work doesn't make sense to me.

As for anti-union opinions in the US, as others have said, it's pretty much the union's fault. When unions step into a space and strong arm companies and people in the same field into using union people or none at all, among other unpleasant behaviors, it quickly drains the good will that unions can build up by 'helping those in need'. It also doesn't help when some of the demands come off as straight up greedy, like the residuals part.

If I recall correctly, they rejected an offer for a 9% pay increase (which may potentially be too low, to be fair) - for residuals, which on a major blowout release could net them 4x the work they were actually paid for originally after the fact. Others may disagree, and I feel VAs AND devs should be paid better in general, but the entire framing just feels considerably more greedy. Attempting to lock out non-union VAs (or apparently causing their own problems to the point where union VAs will take non-union jobs under aliases because they couldn't otherwise) and the like is just icing on the anti-union cake in this case.

Edit: As another example: toss in pretty much anything with "the police union" in there, and you can see why the public doesn't really like unions all that much.

Yeah, that always struck me as odd. I get why an author would receive residual payments for adaptations of their work. They own the initial rights to the IP. The same would go for any rights owner. But why would the employees be entitled to residual payments? And the unions strong arming of non-union members is just as scummy as the corporations.

I agree with their other demands, though. There should be a training instructor present for mocap, and they should get breaks after intense vocal sessions. That's just employee safety stuff.

Areloch:
I
As for anti-union opinions in the US, as others have said, it's pretty much the union's fault. When unions step into a space and strong arm companies and people in the same field into using union people or none at all, among other unpleasant behaviors, it quickly drains the good will that unions can build up by 'helping those in need'. It also doesn't help when some of the demands come off as straight up greedy, like the residuals part.

How would union negotiations work if non-union workers in the same field worked for the same company?

Short answer: it doesn't, management would just lay off the union guys. Bottom line , unionization is like herd immunity and vaccinations. You need a critical amount of union members or having a union is worthless. Like unions in states with right to work laws. Unions are basically dead there because they still have to advocate for all the labor working a job, but said labor doesn't have to be in the union to get the benifits. And as soon as the union dies, work conditions, pay scale, retirement, the whole nine gets shafted, little by little.

And if VAs get residuals for TV, movies, radio, commercials, and whatever else, why not for videogames? Hell, they're even advocating for basing residuals based on copies sold, with the triggering numbers in the millions. If the game's a flop, no residuals. Hell, if the game's an indie success, it still might not sell enough for residuals.

altnameJag:

Areloch:
I
As for anti-union opinions in the US, as others have said, it's pretty much the union's fault. When unions step into a space and strong arm companies and people in the same field into using union people or none at all, among other unpleasant behaviors, it quickly drains the good will that unions can build up by 'helping those in need'. It also doesn't help when some of the demands come off as straight up greedy, like the residuals part.

How would union negotiations work if non-union workers in the same field worked for the same company?

Short answer: it doesn't, management would just lay off the union guys. Bottom line , unionization is like herd immunity and vaccinations. You need a critical amount of union members or having a union is worthless. Like unions in states with right to work laws. Unions are basically dead there because they still have to advocate for all the labor working a job, but said labor doesn't have to be in the union to get the benifits. And as soon as the union dies, work conditions, pay scale, retirement, the whole nine gets shafted, little by little.

And if VAs get residuals for TV, movies, radio, commercials, and whatever else, why not for videogames? Hell, they're even advocating for basing residuals based on copies sold, with the triggering numbers in the millions. If the game's a flop, no residuals. Hell, if the game's an indie success, it still might not sell enough for residuals.

Because it would likely greatly affect post launch service, having to pay a bunch of actors residuals means less money avaliable to pay for coders to support multiplayer, work on patches, DLC etc.

As for this strike, it could easily be the end of SAG's involvement in the gaming industry. Anime dubbing actors are for the large part un-unionised and other actors unions internationally such as equity here in the UK can't issue a do not work order by law and those actors could be credited under pseudonyms. This could backfire quite easily.

Because the OP neglected to post information on the other side of the story: SAG-AFTRA's explanation on what's going on.

Fox12:
So they wanted to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field, or force them to join? Fuck 'em. I think they'll find that they are expendable. In other news, if you ever wanted to enter the industry, then now would be the perfect time to try.

...wha? How is this, in anyway, trying to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field? I'm not seeing any demands about only hiring SAG members or anything? And nothing about trying to force people to join the union either.

In short, what are you on about?

MatParker116:

Because it would likely greatly affect post launch service, having to pay a bunch of actors residuals means less money avaliable to pay for coders to support multiplayer, work on patches, DLC etc.

And that, what, doesn't apply to movies or TV? Besides, we're only talking for residuals for games selling millions of copies. Literally millions: SAG's asking for residuals starting at two million copies sold, and capping at 8. I'm sure Take Two paying a VAs a little on the backend for GTA VI isn't going to break the bank.

If it does, then they really need better money people.

As for this strike, it could easily be the end of SAG's involvement in the gaming industry. Anime dubbing actors are for the large part un-unionised and other actors unions internationally such as equity here in the UK can't issue a do not work order by law and those actors could be credited under pseudonyms. This could backfire quite easily.

Backfire for who, the people already getting screwed? Yeah, it could mean SAG stops doing video game stuff...which is the outcome of any strike where management doesn't come to the negotiating table. Kind of a built in risk for a strike.

altnameJag:

Areloch:
I
As for anti-union opinions in the US, as others have said, it's pretty much the union's fault. When unions step into a space and strong arm companies and people in the same field into using union people or none at all, among other unpleasant behaviors, it quickly drains the good will that unions can build up by 'helping those in need'. It also doesn't help when some of the demands come off as straight up greedy, like the residuals part.

How would union negotiations work if non-union workers in the same field worked for the same company?

Short answer: it doesn't, management would just lay off the union guys. Bottom line , unionization is like herd immunity and vaccinations. You need a critical amount of union members or having a union is worthless. Like unions in states with right to work laws. Unions are basically dead there because they still have to advocate for all the labor working a job, but said labor doesn't have to be in the union to get the benifits. And as soon as the union dies, work conditions, pay scale, retirement, the whole nine gets shafted, little by little.

Oh, I understand how unions work, and how it requires a critical mass of people in it for it to work.
I heavily dislike unions being able to control your employment in a field you're trying to get into before you even get into it, however. If the VA union was so awesome, you wouldn't see major VAs persistently adopting aliases and doing non-union projects on the side because they wouldn't be able to otherwise.

If your own members are dodging union control because it causes problems, that says quite a lot about the union, does it not? To say nothing of people wanting to get into the field and being gatekept with a "either you join the union or you don't get to do any work" feels mob-esque.

And if VAs get residuals for TV, movies, radio, commercials, and whatever else, why not for videogames? Hell, they're even advocating for basing residuals based on copies sold, with the triggering numbers in the millions. If the game's a flop, no residuals. Hell, if the game's an indie success, it still might not sell enough for residuals.

Most every industry on the planet is "you are paid for the work you do". Employment cases where you get residuals are the extreme minority. So I feel it really doesn't matter how the VAs get paid in completely different industries, if the people in the industry we're talking about currently are paid for work done. The VAs should adopt a similar payment methodology(and they do).

As said before, I'm pretty behind the VAs(and the devs) being paid better for the work accomplished, but I disagree with them having a very different payment paradigm to everyone else in the industry(and most industries) when it doesn't make sense to do so.

altnameJag:

Fox12:
So they wanted to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field, or force them to join? Fuck 'em. I think they'll find that they are expendable. In other news, if you ever wanted to enter the industry, then now would be the perfect time to try.

...wha? How is this, in anyway, trying to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field? I'm not seeing any demands about only hiring SAG members or anything? And nothing about trying to force people to join the union either.

In short, what are you on about?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/142541-Video-Game-Voice-Actors-May-Go-On-Strike-Over-Fair-Pay-for-Blockbusters

SAG-AFTRA would like to keep publishers and developer from hiring their own employees to do voice work without having those people join the union.

That's one of the demands they dropped, at least I presume they dropped it because it doesn't get mentioned anymore.

But that still leaves the dilemma
A: You wanted to force people to join your union, which means you are a butthole
or
B: You put this in just so you can delete it during the negotiation to proof how "reasonable" you are, which means you are lying and manipulative butthole.

Edit: You as in me addressing the union, not You you.

Activison but not Blizzard?

altnameJag:

Areloch:
I
As for anti-union opinions in the US, as others have said, it's pretty much the union's fault. When unions step into a space and strong arm companies and people in the same field into using union people or none at all, among other unpleasant behaviors, it quickly drains the good will that unions can build up by 'helping those in need'. It also doesn't help when some of the demands come off as straight up greedy, like the residuals part.

How would union negotiations work if non-union workers in the same field worked for the same company?

Short answer: it doesn't, management would just lay off the union guys. Bottom line , unionization is like herd immunity and vaccinations. You need a critical amount of union members or having a union is worthless. Like unions in states with right to work laws. Unions are basically dead there because they still have to advocate for all the labor working a job, but said labor doesn't have to be in the union to get the benifits. And as soon as the union dies, work conditions, pay scale, retirement, the whole nine gets shafted, little by little.

And if VAs get residuals for TV, movies, radio, commercials, and whatever else, why not for videogames? Hell, they're even advocating for basing residuals based on copies sold, with the triggering numbers in the millions. If the game's a flop, no residuals. Hell, if the game's an indie success, it still might not sell enough for residuals.

That's fine, but don't get surprised when a huge segment of the population decides they don't like the union for inserting themselves into their livelihoods. Guess what? Believe it or not, some people don't want to be in a union. They don't want to give up some of their money to fees, or negotiate with their employer through a third party. But then a union comes in and says that, if they get their way, then you have to either join them or loose your job. And if you join them because you have to, and not because you want to, then you're "obligated" to join them on strike, if they should eve make that decision. Again, they don't care about the workers. They care about their members who pay them money. Which, in this case, is less then 25% of the work force. They need to cut out this mob boss bully shit. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

altnameJag:
Because the OP neglected to post information on the other side of the story: SAG-AFTRA's explanation on what's going on.

Fox12:
So they wanted to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field, or force them to join? Fuck 'em. I think they'll find that they are expendable. In other news, if you ever wanted to enter the industry, then now would be the perfect time to try.

...wha? How is this, in anyway, trying to cut out 75% of the voice actors in the field? I'm not seeing any demands about only hiring SAG members or anything? And nothing about trying to force people to join the union either.

In short, what are you on about?

MatParker116:

Because it would likely greatly affect post launch service, having to pay a bunch of actors residuals means less money avaliable to pay for coders to support multiplayer, work on patches, DLC etc.

And that, what, doesn't apply to movies or TV? Besides, we're only talking for residuals for games selling millions of copies. Literally millions: SAG's asking for residuals starting at two million copies sold, and capping at 8. I'm sure Take Two paying a VAs a little on the backend for GTA VI isn't going to break the bank.

If it does, then they really need better money people.

As for this strike, it could easily be the end of SAG's involvement in the gaming industry. Anime dubbing actors are for the large part un-unionised and other actors unions internationally such as equity here in the UK can't issue a do not work order by law and those actors could be credited under pseudonyms. This could backfire quite easily.

Backfire for who, the people already getting screwed? Yeah, it could mean SAG stops doing video game stuff...which is the outcome of any strike where management doesn't come to the negotiating table. Kind of a built in risk for a strike.

They already made these demands in the beginning. It doesn't get mentioned anymore, so maybe they dropped it, but it was never a reasonable demand to make in the first place. What they were really trying to do is force people to join them or they would lose job opportunities with the biggest companies in the industry. But,since you discussed this in a prior post, I assumed you already knew about this. Again, if the unions were so great, they wouldn't have to strong arm people into joining them.

-Dragmire-:
Activison but not Blizzard?

They're the same company. Anything that mentions Blizzard also mentions Activision, and vice-versa.

Bluntly, I don't think this is going to work. Video games got by for decades on rounding up whoever was working late in the office to do a little VO-work. With the possible exception of movie- or television-based games (a small niche which frequently lives up to its mediocre reputation), most consumers rarely expect to see particular actors in particular games.

I recognize that there are actors in the industry with strong reputations, reputations which make ears perk up when they're cast in a role (Nolan North, Jennifer Hale, and Troy Baker, among others), and other games that have been enriched by notable actors voicing roles (many of Bethesda's and Rockstar's games come to mind.)

But there are countless games in which hiring out of the local community theater group would lead to a sizable improvement over expectations, and little would be missed, without opting into SAG-AFTRA's terms and setting a precedent they would probably regret.

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