Religion & Politics Forum Closed as of 27 March 2019

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Katherine Kerensky:

No, I didn't, but thanks for trying to force intentions into my message of fact.

Ah, ok. I wish now I'd been more fair-minded to the kid in the playground telling the other kid that nobody liked them; clearly they were doing it for purely selfless, factual reasons.

Silvanus:

Katherine Kerensky:

No, I didn't, but thanks for trying to force intentions into my message of fact.

Ah, ok. I wish now I'd been more fair-minded to the kid in the playground telling the other kid that nobody liked them; clearly they were doing it for purely selfless, factual reasons.

Diddums. Sorry you lost R&P, but oh well, nothing of value has been lost.

Katherine Kerensky:
No, I didn't, but thanks for trying to force intentions into my message of fact.

I hate to break it to you, but just because something is factual doesn't mean it isn't an insult. Doubly poorer conduct by abusing privileged knowledge from a position of responsibility to publicly attack someone either. And as you've spent your whole time in this thread evidently trying to nettle other people you do not know for your own enjoyment, I don't think you're coming out so well on the intentions scale, either.

Anyway, it's been fun, but do please try to put your actions where your righteousness is coming from and maybe give everyone a rest.

Agema:

Katherine Kerensky:
No, I didn't, but thanks for trying to force intentions into my message of fact.

I hate to break it to you, but just because something is factual doesn't mean it isn't an insult. Doubly poorer conduct by abusing privileged knowledge from a position of responsibility to publicly attack someone either. And as you've spent your whole time in this thread evidently trying to nettle other people you do not know for your own enjoyment, I don't think you're coming out so well on the intentions scale, either.

Anyway, it's been fun, but do please try to put your actions where your righteousness is coming from and maybe give everyone a rest.

Something something something trying to sound like the normal R&P lot.
Yeah, have fun in the normal forums. R&P was one of the biggest mistakes this site ever made, and I'm thankful it has been corrected.
Maybe they'll also ban religion and politics topics from a gaming forum. One can only hope.

Katherine Kerensky:
Something something something trying to sound like the normal R&P lot.

Aw bless. You're just like us, as you've spent numerous posts demonstrating.

Yeah, have fun in the normal forums.

I already am: the threads we used are being happily generated in OT instead, and I don't care that much about there being a specialised forum. The main losers are the poor guys who don't want politics in their other discussions - which I guess is more you.

Maybe they'll also ban religion and politics topics from a gaming forum. One can only hope.

If that event which shall not be named taught us anything, it's that gaming can't avoid politics.

But mostly, if you want to build a "community" then you let people communicate... and people tend to want to communicate about more than the immediate subject of a site. Thus all sites go the same way: they start about the subject. Then users want to talk about other stuff, so the owners make an other stuff forum. And then new topics progressively get split out as needed / desired.

Agema:

Aw bless. You're just like us, as you've spent numerous posts demonstrating.

So we agree that R&P was a special club shithole that needed to be purged. Good.

Katherine Kerensky:
So we agree that R&P was a special club shithole that needed to be purged. Good.

Perhaps - but if so Escapist probably also needs to can this thread and lots of others you've been using under the same rationale.

Kyle Gaddo:
Hey Escapists,

We?ve made the difficult decision to shutter our Religion & Politics subforum. We realize that this may surprise many of you, considering it?s one of the most active sections of the V1 forums, but its conclusion aligns with our collective vision for the future of Escapist Magazine Volume Two.

We?re not quite ready to reveal all of our future plans just yet, but know that we are hard at work on all of V2?s features, forums included. We have a lot of valuable feedback from the survey we conducted several weeks back and are looking to implement many of the suggestions we received alongside our own.

Thank you for your patience, your understanding, and your dedication as part of Escapist Magazine?s incredible community. We very much look forward to growing alongside you and being better together.

Kyle Gaddo
Community Manager
Escapist Magazine Volume Two

Katherine Kerensky:
snip.

Bang up job managing the community there pal.

Agema:

Perhaps - but if so Escapist probably also needs to can this thread and lots of others you've been using under the same rationale.

Now now, there's no need to get personal just because R&P finally got flushed.

CheetoDust:
Bang up job managing the community there pal.

I stopped being a part of the community around the time I stepped down as a mod. I just liked this thread.

Katherine Kerensky:
Now now, there's no need to get personal...

You took this into the personal about 40-50 posts ago. That's why I'd be concerned about what you'd been getting up to elsewhere.

I stopped being a part of the community around the time I stepped down as a mod. I just liked this thread.

Aha, right. That explains a lot.

Agema:

You took this into the personal about 40-50 posts ago. That's why I'd be concerned about what you'd been getting up to elsewhere.

Aha, right. That explains a lot.

Not really, it was a fact that people got reported a lot in R&P due to conflicting opinions, and then the usual trash heap of spammed reports across that person's unrelated posts.
But if you really want to know what I've been getting up to elsewhere, I could write out a concise little life story since then.
It was mainly dealing with the shit of moderation elsewhere for other communities. Like R&P/GID, they had some problems that should have been cracked down on immediately rather than giving them a chance. Pretty much why I feel this way about R&P here now, since they're pretty much the same as the goons there.

Katherine Kerensky:

Plus, I'm having fun pointing it out that R&P is finally dead.

Hmm. When I read that, all it reminded me of was a post I read on another forum yesterday (day before?) when someone said (paraphrase) 'I'm going to keep my diesel car even though I want to change it, just because it'll annoy the snowflakes'. That person was, unfortunately, what's become known as a Gammon. You don't want to be a Gammon.

Given that you're experiencing similar problem moderating other forums, maybe you just shouldn't be a moderator? I mean, I wouldn't want to be one, but I have a very clever way of dealing with that.

Baffle2:
Hmm. When I read that, all it reminded me of was a post I read on another forum yesterday (day before?) when someone said (paraphrase) 'I'm going to keep my diesel car even though I want to change it, just because it'll annoy the snowflakes'. That person was, unfortunately, what's become known as a Gammon. You don't want to be a Gammon.

Given that you're experiencing similar problem moderating other forums, maybe you just shouldn't be a moderator? I mean, I wouldn't want to be one, but I have a very clever way of dealing with that.

I wouldn't say I'm that bad, but since I actually have some respect for you, I'll take what you say on board. (Edit: I mean that in the way of I'm not the type that would do as your example said. I just always hated the R&P sub-forum since the start, so permit me to have done a little bit of dancing on its grave, it was a pain for a lot of moderators.)
And I stopped being a moderator elsewhere when I recommended dealing with the problems, but the guy in charge dilly dallied and let the problems stay until his youtube and Discord community were fouled up to the point that he hated them. Didn't even bother sticking around, but it made me a bit more harsh towards the problems I've faced whilst moderating.

Katherine Kerensky:

Agema:

Perhaps - but if so Escapist probably also needs to can this thread and lots of others you've been using under the same rationale.

Now now, there's no need to get personal just because R&P finally got flushed.

CheetoDust:
Bang up job managing the community there pal.

I stopped being a part of the community around the time I stepped down as a mod. I just liked this thread.

Was talking about you not to you.

Katherine Kerensky:
Seeing the sadness from people losing their sub-forum fills me with warmth. Guess I started to enjoy the taste of salt more.

Not worth it.

Report and move on.

Come back after a couple days to revisit my most interesting conversations...
All dead and deleted, for shame, had some good ones going there, even if they got heated, at least they were genuine. :(

Katherine Kerensky:
Not really, it was a fact that people got reported a lot in R&P due to conflicting opinions, and then the usual trash heap of spammed reports across that person's unrelated posts.

Yeah, I was aware of that happening. And I'm pretty sure there were some misfits who got annoyed and went round mass reporting all the posts of whoever was on their shitlist that week. I'm sure I probably got reported a lot, as I can be quite sharp and uncompromising. Nevertheless, report spam is very inconsiderate - I don't really get trying to ban people off a board over differences of opinion, either. Still, I suppose people have done worse out there in the world. Ice picks to the skull and all that.

But if you really want to know what I've been getting up to elsewhere,

Not really - I find it a little invasive to delve into people private lives. But if you're happy to share I'm not objecting either.

it's disheartening to see the absence occur. It was the most interesting area with the most interesting posts and posters here, there was always something new to learn or think about. I can take or leave the eternal cycle of "bestest game opinion stuff eva" topics, none of that felt anything more than procrastinatory fluff. much appreciation to the committed fellows there who have infinitely more patience than I towards certain dishonest human behaviours; many respectable names and jpegs/gifs I hope not to see disappear but understand if they choose to do so. though I did end up refraining from own activity there for personal reasons, it was always visited for reading up until it's unceremonious culling nonetheless. added compliments to the odd Baffle post that often brought a much needed chuckle like levity's equivalent of a diamond in the soul-crushing rough of reality too

If you want to know why I think being unable to openly criticize mods is bad, it is because sometimes you end up with mods who call others toxic while being themselves toxic.

Combustion Kevin:
Come back after a couple days to revisit my most interesting conversations...
All dead and deleted, for shame, had some good ones going there, even if they got heated, at least they were genuine. :(

You're not alone in just walking in and seeing most of all my post history evaporated (and I still have the Neo "5k posts with a clean record" badge despite that). R&P was literally kept in the background when I browsed, because that is my preferred place to discuss my preferred topics. The reasonable people easily outweighed the toxic extremists on both sides, and while it wasn't exactly the nicest place to converse, the passion was real because for many the stakes were immediate or imminent. And after surviving years of ugliness and particularly toxic behavior, I'm disappointed for it to essentially be the vibrant slum that's now a parking lot for OT's growing mall.

Guess I'm off to off-topic to start again. *Starts playing Immigrant Song*

Saelune:
If you want to know why I think being unable to openly criticize mods is bad, it is because sometimes you end up with mods who call others toxic while being themselves toxic.

If you have concerns, feel free to email me: [first].[last]@escapistmagazine[dot]com

Kyle Gaddo:

Saelune:
If you want to know why I think being unable to openly criticize mods is bad, it is because sometimes you end up with mods who call others toxic while being themselves toxic.

If you have concerns, feel free to email me: [first].[last]@escapistmagazine[dot]com

Is that an open invitation to everyone?

Katherine Kerensky:
Seeing the sadness from people losing their sub-forum fills me with warmth. Guess I started to enjoy the taste of salt more.

All we need now is to bring back the Wild West and then the salt shall flow.

vallorn:

Kyle Gaddo:

Saelune:
If you want to know why I think being unable to openly criticize mods is bad, it is because sometimes you end up with mods who call others toxic while being themselves toxic.

If you have concerns, feel free to email me: [first].[last]@escapistmagazine[dot]com

Is that an open invitation to everyone?

Probably, but I don't think that's a valid email address though...

vallorn:
Is that an open invitation to everyone?

It is.

Drathnoxis:
Probably, but I don't think that's a valid email address though...

My first and last name are available in my username here on the forums. For clarity: replace all bracketed items with the appropriate items, like my first and last name, as well as a period.

I only did it that way because I don't want to receive automated spam emails.

Katherine Kerensky:
Enjoying calling people names? I'd say that's more like insulting than anything I posted.

I mean, you labelled people problem children, which is an insult, so no, I'd say it's exactly the same as what you posted. Bit milder, in fact, since Silvanus never actually called you any names. Nice double standard you've got going there Katy

So, I've had time to think, and I have a question about the new COC.

What counts as hatespeech?

Because a persistent problem I had with the way this site has been moderated in the past was the assumption that only overt slurs and insults were grounds for moderation, which lead to, for example, one (off topic) thread in which people openly compared black people to apes, and yet no action was taken. In fact, if I remember, I got a warning on that thread, and in appealing that warning had to explain to moderators the significance of comparing black people to apes. I don't feel like that's the kind of thing you should ever have to explain to someone responsible for enforcing good conduct.

I've noticed a huge improvement in the moderation of this site since you guys took over. It's not good enough, but it's better, and it seems to me from Kyle's statements on the subject that you see the need to actively exclude things like white supremacy rather than tolerating them provided there are no slurs or abuse. But the reason some of us (certainly me) got into the mindset of "argue, don't report" is because of a complete lack of trust in the willingness of moderators to clamp down on the really awful people who spammed up this place with sexism, homophobia, racism and transphobia, seemingly with impunity, because they weren't outright insulting people, just attacking their basic right to exist or implying that they were a lesser form of human life.

So basically, what is the line? Because if the rules are, for example, going to tolerate "polite" expressions of transphobia and then punish trans people for responding angrily, then I think I'm out. I've seen enough that I don't think that's going to be the case, but it would be nice to have a clearer sense of degrees.

evilthecat:

So basically, what is the line? Because if the rules are, for example, going to tolerate "polite" expressions of transphobia and then punish trans people for responding angrily, then I think I'm out. I've seen enough that I don't think that's going to be the case, but it would be nice to have a clearer sense of degrees.

Hypothetically I get to elaborate the line between tolerated and non-tolerated conduct, but once it's done everyone disagrees and tosses it away because it's a bad line. What do I do? Did I have the only acceptable line in mind? Is some of it up for debate? Do I lament the hopeless situation and leave or do I have hope that there are good things to be had even if toeing over my line is accepted?

evilthecat:
So, I've had time to think, and I have a question about the new COC.

What counts as hatespeech?

Because a persistent problem I had with the way this site has been moderated in the past was the assumption that only overt slurs and insults were grounds for moderation, which lead to, for example, one (off topic) thread in which people openly compared black people to apes, and yet no action was taken. In fact, if I remember, I got a warning on that thread, and in appealing that warning had to explain to moderators the significance of comparing black people to apes. I don't feel like that's the kind of thing you should ever have to explain to someone responsible for enforcing good conduct.

I've noticed a huge improvement in the moderation of this site since you guys took over. It's not good enough, but it's better, and it seems to me from Kyle's statements on the subject that you see the need to actively exclude things like white supremacy rather than tolerating them provided there are no slurs or abuse. But the reason some of us (certainly me) got into the mindset of "argue, don't report" is because of a complete lack of trust in the willingness of moderators to clamp down on the really awful people who spammed up this place with sexism, homophobia, racism and transphobia, seemingly with impunity, because they weren't outright insulting people, just attacking their basic right to exist or implying that they were a lesser form of human life.

So basically, what is the line? Because if the rules are, for example, going to tolerate "polite" expressions of transphobia and then punish trans people for responding angrily, then I think I'm out. I've seen enough that I don't think that's going to be the case, but it would be nice to have a clearer sense of degrees.

I wish I could add text to a report. Like, its a real pain that calling a troll out is more likely to be punished than trolling is. Would be nice if I could point out that I am reporting someone for being a troll and explain why rather than hope that whoever checks it realizes the person being reported is trolling based on their post history.

Flipping great!

I'm just waiting for the inevitable announcement that Yahtzee Croshaw no longer fits the Escapist's Brave New Branding, and this site's reinvention as a big inoffensive bowl of grey, tepid tapioca will be complete.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Hard as fuck to get new advertisers with that sub-forum open huh? Then you slowly squeeze the rules juuuust so that R&P becomes a quick way to get banned on Off-topic. Something something, aggression towards others. Ah. Honestly? I mostly feel sorry for Selune. This place was probably providing some catharsis considering how garbage other places are right now. Ah well. Can't feel sad about it now, as I've actively argued for R&P to be closed up before.

evilthecat:
So, I've had time to think, and I have a question about the new COC.

What counts as hatespeech?

Because a persistent problem I had with the way this site has been moderated in the past was the assumption that only overt slurs and insults were grounds for moderation, which lead to, for example, one (off topic) thread in which people openly compared black people to apes, and yet no action was taken. In fact, if I remember, I got a warning on that thread, and in appealing that warning had to explain to moderators the significance of comparing black people to apes. I don't feel like that's the kind of thing you should ever have to explain to someone responsible for enforcing good conduct.

I've noticed a huge improvement in the moderation of this site since you guys took over. It's not good enough, but it's better, and it seems to me from Kyle's statements on the subject that you see the need to actively exclude things like white supremacy rather than tolerating them provided there are no slurs or abuse. But the reason some of us (certainly me) got into the mindset of "argue, don't report" is because of a complete lack of trust in the willingness of moderators to clamp down on the really awful people who spammed up this place with sexism, homophobia, racism and transphobia, seemingly with impunity, because they weren't outright insulting people, just attacking their basic right to exist or implying that they were a lesser form of human life.

So basically, what is the line? Because if the rules are, for example, going to tolerate "polite" expressions of transphobia and then punish trans people for responding angrily, then I think I'm out. I've seen enough that I don't think that's going to be the case, but it would be nice to have a clearer sense of degrees.

The best answer I can give you, and I expressed this sentiment before in multiple R&P threads, is that dehumanizing others isn't going to be tolerated. I've conveyed this message to the moderators and we all seemingly have an understanding of what this entails. Any "gray area" content gets passed to me personally for judgment. We do our best to analyze context of conversations if things are not readily apparent. And the unfortunate reality is that is that there will be failure on our part, but we hope to keep that as close to zero as possible.

I know people who are intentionally dishonest exist within our community. They are prone to sealioning or JAQing off (Just Asking Questions) and generally not having the best intentions when partaking in discourse. I hope to have less and less of this as time goes on, so if this is you, find a new hobby.

As I mentioned before, my sincere hope is that people within Escapist Magazine's community become better versions of themselves. Whether they do it independently of the community or within it ultimately doesn't matter to me, as long as they're becoming kinder, more respectful people.

I hope this provides you with some confidence in our direction. I don't think your question necessarily has a plain-as-day answer, but know that the moderators and I are going to do our best for all of you so that you have a secure place to be yourselves without others questioning your right to exist.

Saelune:
I wish I could add text to a report. Like, its a real pain that calling a troll out is more likely to be punished than trolling is. Would be nice if I could point out that I am reporting someone for being a troll and explain why rather than hope that whoever checks it realizes the person being reported is trolling based on their post history.

This is something we're looking to have in the V2 forums.

Well done shutting down the most interesting and relevant section on the site.
I hope marketing yourselves as a game-discussion and off-topic website works out for you. I mean, it's not like there are hundreds of other alternatives out there, most of them with more modern websites, original content and well-established communities.

Kyle Gaddo:
Hey Escapists,

We?ve made the difficult decision to shutter our Religion & Politics subforum. We realize that this may surprise many of you, considering it?s one of the most active sections of the V1 forums, but its conclusion aligns with our collective vision for the future of Escapist Magazine Volume Two.

While it's great that the R&P cesspit has been closed, allowing those same topics into the "Off-topic" forum hasn't solved the problem, it's just moved it. The point should have been to stop the sewage and toxic bile on the Escapist forums altogether, not divert it into another sub-forum. I applaud the decision but the problem (ie. the toxic sludge) hasn't been solved, it's just running thru a different pipe now and if anything, is worse since a previously usable sub-forum, Off-Topic, is already filling up with the aforementioned sludge.

Oh dear. This...Actually upsets me.

I finally gave up on R&P because the arguments just got too frustrating for me and now they're gonna be all over Off-Topic. -_-

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