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Dreiko:

hanselthecaretaker:

Dreiko:
I just heard the dumbest but also funniest thing ever, and it's in relation to this game.

Apparently, a pretty big youtube channel (something like 500k subs) got shut down cause it showed videos of this game where the hero was beating a suffragette and feeding her to alligators on the grounds of "promoting violence". Now, you'd be hard-pressed to run into any video from this game or GTA which doesn't promote violence, many videos showing prostitutes being run over in GTA still exist, for example, but I am sure this is the first time such a video has ever managed to shut down a channel.

I'm not sure which is superior, the sheer creativity of that youtuber (who sounds like he deserved every last one of his subs and I hope he gets his channel back) or the idiocy in selective outrage about violence based on the class of the fictional victim. If anything, what youtube shoulda done if they thought this game promotes violence is ban videos of the game entirely, not just this one youtuber. It's not like other people won't also be able to make similar videos after all.

I think I saw that clip yesterday.

Apparently he?s not shut down yet if that was it. It started out funny but you can tell it didn?t go the way he wanted, as it completely falls apart when he proceeds to beat her senseless after the gator loses interest. Some of the comments were ultimately funnier.

No, the channel was definitely taken down, it just got reinstated not too long ago due to outrage at the idiocy that caused it to be taken down when it didn't even have any strikes.

So it sounds like multiple people made clips like that, because the one above looked like what you described.

Casual Shinji:
Yeah, it's not as clear cut as that. It's not about promoting violence or selective outrage, it's about adding to the current toxicity that's present among the disturbingly large group of people who equate feminism to baby rape. He made 6 or so videos purposely titled to scream 'feminists are stupid, and here I am killing one'. You make similar videos similarly titled about killing black NPCs you're probably gonna get your channel shut down as well. It's about time Youtube's shitty algorithm took down someone who deserved it.

Yeah, making one video of that kind is sort of sleazy, but is ultimately sort of harmless. Making six of them? Suddenly we are not in "Look at this fun RDR2 hijinx!"-territory but has crossed straight into "violent zealotry"-land. The fact that the first video the guy posted after his channel was reinstated was called something like "Mexican deported back across the border" just proves what kind of asshole we are dealing with.

Gethsemani:

Casual Shinji:
Yeah, it's not as clear cut as that. It's not about promoting violence or selective outrage, it's about adding to the current toxicity that's present among the disturbingly large group of people who equate feminism to baby rape. He made 6 or so videos purposely titled to scream 'feminists are stupid, and here I am killing one'. You make similar videos similarly titled about killing black NPCs you're probably gonna get your channel shut down as well. It's about time Youtube's shitty algorithm took down someone who deserved it.

Yeah, making one video of that kind is sort of sleazy, but is ultimately sort of harmless. Making six of them? Suddenly we are not in "Look at this fun RDR2 hijinx!"-territory but has crossed straight into "violent zealotry"-land. The fact that the first video the guy posted after his channel was reinstated was called something like "Mexican deported back across the border" just proves what kind of asshole we are dealing with.

Before the initial looking into it further upon seeing the panics a couple of days ago, the very first thought was "I bet this is another out-of-context freezepeach scare, ignoring patterns of past incursions yet again" ...and lo 'n behold, they did not disappoint. If only everything else in life could be that predictable!

Gethsemani:
Yeah, making one video of that kind is sort of sleazy, but is ultimately sort of harmless. Making six of them? Suddenly we are not in "Look at this fun RDR2 hijinx!"-territory but has crossed straight into "violent zealotry"-land. The fact that the first video the guy posted after his channel was reinstated was called something like "Mexican deported back across the border" just proves what kind of asshole we are dealing with.

Looks like he just showed his true colors all of a sudden. Not that I ever looked into his channel, but I'm familiar with it as just another popular 'random game footage' channel I've seen in the recommendations through the years. Oh well, thankfully he's got an easily recognizable name, so I know what 'epic reveal cutscene' videos to ignore from now on.

Honestly, those titles legit sound like simple politically incorrect jokes to me. I think sometimes people look for those "alt right" boogiemen too much so they end up finding them in the wrong places. In any case, I've grown up in and have the values of a social democracy and found nothing inherently against my politics in those vids. They were just an irreverent meme basically.

hanselthecaretaker:

Dreiko:

hanselthecaretaker:

I think I saw that clip yesterday.

Apparently he?s not shut down yet if that was it. It started out funny but you can tell it didn?t go the way he wanted, as it completely falls apart when he proceeds to beat her senseless after the gator loses interest. Some of the comments were ultimately funnier.

No, the channel was definitely taken down, it just got reinstated not too long ago due to outrage at the idiocy that caused it to be taken down when it didn't even have any strikes.

So it sounds like multiple people made clips like that, because the one above looked like what you described.

Right, there were multiple ones but only one of them got their channel taken down and it was the one you linked. I think it was because he either started the meme or because his was the biggest channel but it definitely was his channel that was temporarily taken down.

I wonder if the only reason these clips aren't flagged for removal is because they kinda play into the whole satirical nature of the series, albeit in a bit of an extreme and ironically pertinent form given the current sociopolitical climate.

Speaking of, one of the Houser brothers themselves recently commented on it being partly why they're not touching anything new as far as GTA goes.

Dreiko:
Honestly, those titles legit sound like simple politically incorrect jokes to me. I think sometimes people look for those "alt right" boogiemen too much so they end up finding them in the wrong places. In any case, I've grown up in and have the values of a social democracy and found nothing inherently against my politics in those vids. They were just an irreverent meme basically.

Showing off fictional violence (not once, but at least 6 times) toward a group, specifically one that's currently getting a ludicrous amount of hate that's very much rooted in sexism, is more than just polically incorrect humor or an irreverent meme. It's showing a rather ugly side of someone. It's like if somebody reinacted the crubstomp scene from American History X in game form and making multiple videos on it titled 'annoying black guy meets sidewalk'.

Casual Shinji:

Dreiko:
Honestly, those titles legit sound like simple politically incorrect jokes to me. I think sometimes people look for those "alt right" boogiemen too much so they end up finding them in the wrong places. In any case, I've grown up in and have the values of a social democracy and found nothing inherently against my politics in those vids. They were just an irreverent meme basically.

Showing off fictional violence (not once, but at least 6 times) toward a group, specifically one that's currently getting a ludicrous amount of hate that's very much rooted in sexism, is more than just polically incorrect humor or an irreverent meme. It's showing a rather ugly side of someone. It's like if somebody reinacted the crubstomp scene from American History X in game form and making multiple videos on it titled 'annoying black guy meets sidewalk'.

Ok so a couple of things. I saw the current of this thought earlier but chose not to point it out because it wasn't as relevant but I think it is now.

I don't think feminists are a "protected class", certainly not in the same way black people are for one. This is because anyone of any race or sex can be a feminist. I think people are being slippery in trying to equate people disliking annoying shrill third wave militant feminists with a dislike for women in general, and that's just not the case at all. Nor is it a dislike for the ideals of equality among the sexes, either.

Now, finally, I think what you're missing here is that the multiple videos and the response they got was not, in fact, some type of specific hatred and so on, but rather a more normal commonly held belief and opinion. Basically, simply put, feminists are typically considered annoying and are disliked, so nobody needed to hate them for this video to be nominally entertaining. You know those "instant karma" videos where someone does something dumb and get what's coming to them? These are entertaining in exactly the same fashion. It's not hate as much as (yes, I'm really gonna say it XD) justice that's the origin of the entertainment value in those videos.

When someone as liberal as me, who has grown in a pretty socialist place and is in agreement with almost all progressive policy you can think of still thinks "well, these people definitely are annoying so this was pretty creative and funny all things considered" then the average reaction will be a few octaves less bothered than that. Trying to focus on it as though it's an alt-right thing specifically just completely misses the point or defines everyone to the right of communists as alt-right, which is just ridiculous.

Dreiko:
Ok so a couple of things. I saw the current of this thought earlier but chose not to point it out because it wasn't as relevant but I think it is now.

I don't think feminists are a "protected class", certainly not in the same way black people are for one. This is because anyone of any race or sex can be a feminist. I think people are being slippery in trying to equate people disliking annoying shrill third wave militant feminists with a dislike for women in general, and that's just not the case at all. Nor is it a dislike for the ideals of equality among the sexes, either.

Now, finally, I think what you're missing here is that the multiple videos and the response they got was not, in fact, some type of specific hatred and so on, but rather a more normal commonly held belief and opinion. Basically, simply put, feminists are typically considered annoying and are disliked, so nobody needed to hate them for this video to be nominally entertaining. You know those "instant karma" videos where someone does something dumb and get what's coming to them? These are entertaining in exactly the same fashion. It's not hate as much as (yes, I'm really gonna say it XD) justice that's the origin of the entertainment value in those videos.

When someone as liberal as me, who has grown in a pretty socialist place and is in agreement with almost all progressive policy you can think of still thinks "well, these people definitely are annoying so this was pretty creative and funny all things considered" then the average reaction will be a few octaves less bothered than that. Trying to focus on it as though it's an alt-right thing specifically just completely misses the point or defines everyone to the right of communists as alt-right, which is just ridiculous.

I'm glad you brought that up, because those types of videos are what's adding to the ugliness and toxicity on YouTube. And yes, it is hate. Maybe not a raging hatred, but a distain for a group of people, in this case people (specifically women) with feminist values. The people who make these 'feminist gets what she deserves' instant karma videos don't make them in good fun. It comes from a place of belittlement or worse, and expressing yourself in such a way is kinda sleazy and only adds fuel to the tire fire.

You say disliking "shrill third wave militant feminists" (what current examples of those can you even give me) isn't the same as disliking women in general, but with a very large group of prominent and ever growing youtubers this is already the case. The people who cry foul over women being in Battlefield, a gay kiss being in a videogame, or a female character in a movie apparently being a Mary Sue. Anything that's considered pushing a feminist/LGBTQ agenda even the slightest (within male dominated geek entertainment anyway) is met with a ridiculous amount of hostility. And this (the RDR2 videos) I can't see as anything other than an extension of this hostility.

Casual Shinji:
I'm glad you brought that up, because those types of videos are what's adding to the ugliness and toxicity on YouTube. And yes, it is hate. Maybe not a raging hatred, but a distain for a group of people, in this case people (specifically women) with feminist values. The people who make these 'feminist gets what she deserves' instant karma videos don't make them in good fun. It comes from a place of belittlement or worse, and expressing yourself in such a way is kinda sleazy and only adds fuel to the tire fire.

You say disliking "shrill third wave militant feminists" (what current examples of those can you even give me) isn't the same as disliking women in general, but with a very large group of prominent and ever growing youtubers this is already the case. The people who cry foul over women being in Battlefield, a gay kiss being in a videogame, or a female character in a movie apparently being a Mary Sue. Anything that's considered pushing a feminist/LGBTQ agenda even the slightest (within male dominated geek entertainment anyway) is met with a ridiculous amount of hostility. And this (the RDR2 videos) I can't see as anything other than an extension of this hostility.

I'm not referring to videos of feminist instant karma, just random instant karma videos. Like, some guy tries to kick a horse but the horse jumps away at the last moment and he trips and falls in mud or someone tries to put some shaving cream on a sleeping roommate's face only to trip and cream themselves, stuff like that.

I didn't even know there was a specific feminist-variety to those lol. Though, that I think is notably worse than just having videogame footage of an npc being fed to a crocodile after being lassoed. They lack the sheer creative comedy and I can see how they can come off as mean-spirited and ugly, unlike that video which was purely hilarious. Again, the entertainment source is that of justice. Yes there's belittlement and there's hostility and so on but what's critical here is that it's always feeling to be deserved. Nobody is enjoying it cause they feel as though they're sadistically oppressing poor women and deriving patriarchal pleasure (whatever that is haha). People are just having a laugh at the guy who tried to light his friend on fire as a joke being the one that's up in blazes.

I don't really need to give you a current example like how we don't need to give a current example in any commonly disliked group or group found to be annoying. Someone can be just annoying enough that the well is poisoned years after they've been removed from the discussion. Like how people make really critical Justin Beiber or Kardashian jokes despite them not really having been relevant for ages, cause they symbolize that annoying celebrity personality that's commonly disliked.

Finally I agree that there's hostility to a degree, I just don't think classifying it as hatred makes much sense. If anything, you cheapen the severity of hatred. Wanting it dealt with as though it is will only make people go "well, if this is hatred then I guess hatred isn't that big of a deal after all" and that is what's actually dangerous here. Ultimately, we must acknowledge that there is a reasonable, rational degree of hostility one can hold towards another with drastically different values and outlooks on the world and that this doesn't need to spill over into the realms of hate or violence. We need to be able to tolerate people being hostile in civil ways. If we don't and make people pretend that those differences don't exist then they will eventually explode and that's where the danger is. Basically, nobody's getting hurt by people having fun in a vidoegame and it's a million times more healthy of a way of dealing with that minor annoyance than letting it fester.

Why are we expecting empathy from an internet culture that prides itself on the lack of it.

undeadsuitor:
Why are we expecting empathy from an internet culture that prides itself on the lack of it.

Why indeed...

Dreiko:
Basically, nobody's getting hurt by people having fun in a vidoegame and it's a million times more healthy of a way of dealing with that minor annoyance than letting it fester.

Then keep that to yourself. People are allowed to blow off steam in videogames in whatever way the game allows them to, but by putting that online you're adding to the ever growing sentiment that's currently festering on YouTube. And this guy knew what part of the geek/YouTube community he was aiming for with those titles, just as those particular instant karma videos do.

Dreiko:

I don't think feminists are a "protected class", certainly not in the same way black people are for one. This is because anyone of any race or sex can be a feminist. I think people are being slippery in trying to equate people disliking annoying shrill third wave militant feminists with a dislike for women in general, and that's just not the case at all. Nor is it a dislike for the ideals of equality among the sexes, either.

How good then that no one in here has even said anything remotely like this. Don't get me wrong, it is a nice spiel you have here, it is just not in any way related to the topic at hand.

Dreiko:
Now, finally, I think what you're missing here is that the multiple videos and the response they got was not, in fact, some type of specific hatred and so on, but rather a more normal commonly held belief and opinion. Basically, simply put, feminists are typically considered annoying and are disliked, so nobody needed to hate them for this video to be nominally entertaining. You know those "instant karma" videos where someone does something dumb and get what's coming to them? These are entertaining in exactly the same fashion. It's not hate as much as (yes, I'm really gonna say it XD) justice that's the origin of the entertainment value in those videos.

This is all well and good, but you're missing a key point here: The character in RDR2 isn't some blue haired shirll, toxic third wave feminist shouting about how all her genders have to be accepted and how she sexually identifies as an attack helicopter that gets off on watching castration videos. The character in question is a Suffragette, someone who lobbies for the right of women to vote. Women's right to vote was first wave feminism and the character in the game never goes beyond talking about voting rights. So this is not about justice or comeuppance, this is some guy seeing a character that he vaguely identifies as a feminist because she talks about women's rights. He then proceeds to make several videos worth of content where he kills that character in various ways. A character that has no bearing on the kind of feminism that you feel one might rightly despise (I disagree obviously, but that's another topic). By your logic, Shirrako is actually annoyed at women's right to vote and thus the suffragette is getting some kind of karmic payback. Do you not see how stupid this sounds?

Honestly, your defense here rests on the idea that we are fine with the idea that people feel it is alright to harbor graphic revenge fantasies against people they find annoying or don't like for whatever reason. And that portraying those graphic revenge fantasies as "hilarious" or "meme worthy" is actually a normal kind of pastime, instead of obscenely creepy. Creepy in the same way it'd be if I began writing fan fics about how Totally-Not-Me comes up with various ways to torture and kill Jordan Peterson or Donald Trump.

Dreiko:
When someone as liberal as me, who has grown in a pretty socialist place and is in agreement with almost all progressive policy you can think of still thinks "well, these people definitely are annoying so this was pretty creative and funny all things considered" then the average reaction will be a few octaves less bothered than that. Trying to focus on it as though it's an alt-right thing specifically just completely misses the point or defines everyone to the right of communists as alt-right, which is just ridiculous.

This is a tone policing fallacy. Besides, through all your interaction on this board, you've never struck me as one of the most liberal or progressive people around, quite the opposite in fact. I associate your username with repeated defenses of the alt-right and anti-feminism. Don't worry about that though, you wouldn't be the first person around here to believe that they are incredibly liberal and progressive, while being in constant opposition of actual liberal and progressive people.

Drathnoxis:
So Russ Pitts said in his review thing that he ran over someone with his horse, is that something you can do? Because I thought horses tried to avoid trampling people IRL?

CaitSeith:

Seeing this reminds me how ridiculous it is that you can pay your own bounty. I mean, the purpose of a bounty is to incentivize others to bring you to justice or to simply kill you. It's a reward, not a bail sum.

CaitSeith:

Drathnoxis:
So Russ Pitts said in his review thing that he ran over someone with his horse, is that something you can do? Because I thought horses tried to avoid trampling people IRL?

That's funny. Looks like even back in the WW people were fishing for those big horse crash settlements.

Casual Shinji:

CaitSeith:

Seeing this reminds me how ridiculous it is that you can pay your own bounty. I mean, the purpose of a bounty is to incentivize others to bring you to justice or to simply kill you. It's a reward, not a bail sum.

True, but game logic still prevails which means they needed a reasonable "out". Idk if I'd like having to constantly go to jail and lose who knows what constantly be on the run from pesky hunters. Like if you never lost your star level in GTA that would be painfully frustrating.

I can see the online doing something with it though, as kind of a king of the hill where the longer you outrun the law the more loot you get, or the higher the bounty for whoever manages to capture you.

Having said that, it is too easy to hit people with your horse. There should be a setting that gives the horse more instinct to avoid obstacles, even though you're technically supposed to be steering them.

*edit* Tip #2 here sounds like a pretty good alternative to paying your bounty. More in depth on the bounty system.

Gethsemani:

How good then that no one in here has even said anything remotely like this. Don't get me wrong, it is a nice spiel you have here, it is just not in any way related to the topic at hand.

What I was responding to was such a statement in fact. Specifically, it was the reference to feminism as a group that deserves extra protection from hostility due to to the current climate. You may have not read the quoted post that the statement was a response to or something.

This is all well and good, but you're missing a key point here: The character in RDR2 isn't some blue haired shirll, toxic third wave feminist shouting about how all her genders have to be accepted and how she sexually identifies as an attack helicopter that gets off on watching castration videos. The character in question is a Suffragette, someone who lobbies for the right of women to vote. Women's right to vote was first wave feminism and the character in the game never goes beyond talking about voting rights. So this is not about justice or comeuppance, this is some guy seeing a character that he vaguely identifies as a feminist because she talks about women's rights. He then proceeds to make several videos worth of content where he kills that character in various ways. A character that has no bearing on the kind of feminism that you feel one might rightly despise (I disagree obviously, but that's another topic). By your logic, Shirrako is actually annoyed at women's right to vote and thus the suffragette is getting some kind of karmic payback. Do you not see how stupid this sounds?

Honestly, your defense here rests on the idea that we are fine with the idea that people feel it is alright to harbor graphic revenge fantasies against people they find annoying or don't like for whatever reason. And that portraying those graphic revenge fantasies as "hilarious" or "meme worthy" is actually a normal kind of pastime, instead of obscenely creepy. Creepy in the same way it'd be if I began writing fan fics about how Totally-Not-Me comes up with various ways to torture and kill Jordan Peterson or Donald Trump.

I never actually said the char in the game was a third wave intersectional crazy though (how could anyone even hold that thought, she can't be that since she's alive during 1899 lol), what I explained is why such a video can have comedic value. Again like I explained earlier, those people are just annoying enough that they poison the well and get their innocuous partners painted with the same brush due to association.

And no I don't think writing that fanfiction is creepy but I do think it's a lot more effort than just screwing around in a game made for screwing around. These games are made for random unthinking impulsive carnage. You're being wayyyyy over the top serious when analyzing acts conducted in them.

This is a tone policing fallacy. Besides, through all your interaction on this board, you've never struck me as one of the most liberal or progressive people around, quite the opposite in fact. I associate your username with repeated defenses of the alt-right and anti-feminism. Don't worry about that though, you wouldn't be the first person around here to believe that they are incredibly liberal and progressive, while being in constant opposition of actual liberal and progressive people.

Right, this is my point. You're defining everything to the right of communism, or, you're defining a dislike for SJWs or crazy feminists as alt right which is ridiculous. Fact is I was a Bernie fan and even voted for Hilldog cause I think Trump's dumb. That's a reality and that's a very bad way of being pro alt-right haha.

Here's the key to the mystery; I'm ultimately pro gaming, pro anime and pro freedom of expression. Those are the criteria that I choose my politics on. When I see someone threaten those things, be it some crazy right winger claiming games cause shootings or some girl who thought gaming was dumb when she was in school and made fun of people who engaged in it past middle-school but now has to pretend to acknowledge it cause it's popular but still doesn't really get it and tries to impact change that's unneeded or harmful, I will defend gaming. When the alt right got some SJW fired from nintendo cause she wrote a paper about lolicon while in college I was instantly on her side, cause we need to be able to talk about everything in this society.

It is a sad reality that the left tends to attack the things I like a whole lot more than the right nowadays, but that doesn't somehow make me change my mind about issues like high taxes being good or a high minimum wage or abortion rights or gay marriage rights and so on. Hell, wanna hear something real socialist-like? I'd even be for a maximum wage in an effort to combat povery(basically, the highest wage at a company can only be like six-ten times as big as the lowest, not like it is now where people can earn thousands of times as much). But yeah, despite all this, I often go against the church of intersectionality (always as a response to it doing something dumb first) so you see me as an unbeliever and every unbeliever instantly is alt-right to your eyes. I present to you that we can agree to disagree on some minor matters and still stand shoulder to shoulder against the actually evil people (not people who like to play politically incorrect videogames and so on) out there, but ultimately that's your choice to make I guess.

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