LET'S (NOT) RESPECT EACH OTHER?S TASTES (OR: "THIS GAME ISN'T FOR YOU, AND THAT'S (NOT) OKAY")

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altnameJag:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.

I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?

Specter Von Baren:

altnameJag:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.

I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?

How dare a video game reviewer on a website for video game reviews review a video game?

Avnger:

Specter Von Baren:

altnameJag:
Folks, I like trash games as much as the next person, but c'mon. A niche fanservice game where you cleanse the sins of scantily clad girls through the power of BDSM is going to get niche fanservice trash scores. Stuff like Gun Gun Pixies and Gal Gun are softcore fanservice (not) porn. Which is fine (I guess), but it's never going to be taken "seriously".

Like, the fact that Gun Gun Pixies has the rare and much appreciated conceit of every woman being over 18 is mildly concerning for the rest of the genre.

I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?

How dare a video game reviewer on a website for video game reviews review a video game?

But, don't you see? Making fun of a bad game and its audience in a review is stirring shit for no good reason. He shouldn't review games he knows he won't like. Why can't they be more professionals? Just look a Yahtzee! He never makes fun of gam... uh... I mean, he never mocks the audienc... err... look! He never ever reviews a game he knows he won't lik...

What I mean to say is, trust me, reviewers suck! /s

CaitSeith:

Avnger:

Specter Von Baren:

I don't think it's being taken seriously that has people worked up but that it feels like someone trying to stir things up for no real reason. It's not something that's going to ever go away and it's not hurting anyone so what is the point of bringing it up?

How dare a video game reviewer on a website for video game reviews review a video game?

But, don't you see? Making fun of a bad game and its audience in a review is stirring shit for no good reason. He shouldn't review games he knows he won't like. Why can't they be more professionals? Just look a Yahtzee! He never makes fun of gam... uh... I mean, he never mocks the audienc... err... look! He never ever reviews a game he knows he won't lik...

What I mean to say is, trust me, reviewers suck! /s

Yahtzee is a cynic who dislikes everything. Meanwhile whomever is still covering such games is dunking on fanservice titles and their overly sensitive fanbase

gyrobot:

CaitSeith:

But, don't you see? Making fun of a bad game and its audience in a review is stirring shit for no good reason. He shouldn't review games he knows he won't like. Why can't they be more professionals? Just look a Yahtzee! He never makes fun of gam... uh... I mean, he never mocks the audienc... err... look! He never ever reviews a game he knows he won't lik...

What I mean to say is, trust me, reviewers suck! /s

Yahtzee is a cynic who dislikes everything.

And?

gyrobot:
Meanwhile whomever is still covering such games is dunking on fanservice titles and their overly sensitive fanbase

So?

In a related topic, curiosity got the better of this woman, and she ended up as a new fan of the game.

Read the thread, and join me for a trip through the cognitive dissonance caused by playing an ecchi game for the very first time and loving it...

CaitSeith:
snip

Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

I'm still surprised that people don't get that sometimes people like things because they are good. And even if you don't like a thing, doesn't mean somebody else can enjoy and like it for what it is.

For example, some people like Brussels Sprouts.

CritialGaming:
snip

It's probably more important to learn that "bad game" =/= "game you shouldn't like".

CritialGaming:

Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

Well, sure, but... the game is being very up-front about its sales pitch, isn't it? It's being quite explicit that what it primarily has to offer is anime tits. That's the sales pitch.

Double post.

Silvanus:

CritialGaming:

Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

Well, sure, but... the game is being very up-front about its sales pitch, isn't it? It's being quite explicit that what it primarily has to offer is anime tits. That's the sales pitch.

Sure it has a certain theme running through it. And like you said, it's up front about it. So it's not like you could buy the game and be surprised that it's heavy on the T&A. It's like buying a 3 million scovile hot sauce and then being surprised when the shit is hot. The damn label told you what it was, why you surprised?

CaitSeith:
In a related topic, curiosity got the better of this guy, and he ended up as a new fan of the game.

Read the thread, and join me for a trip through the cognitive dissonance caused by playing an ecchi game for the very first time and loving it...

Wait, when did this famous comic book writer change sex?

CritialGaming:

Silvanus:

CritialGaming:

Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

Well, sure, but... the game is being very up-front about its sales pitch, isn't it? It's being quite explicit that what it primarily has to offer is anime tits. That's the sales pitch.

Sure it has a certain theme running through it. And like you said, it's up front about it. So it's not like you could buy the game and be surprised that it's heavy on the T&A. It's like buying a 3 million scovile hot sauce and then being surprised when the shit is hot. The damn label told you what it was, why you surprised?

I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).

trunkage:

CaitSeith:
In a related topic, curiosity got the better of this guy, and he ended up as a new fan of the game.

Read the thread, and join me for a trip through the cognitive dissonance caused by playing an ecchi game for the very first time and loving it...

Wait, when did this famous comic book writer change sex?

OK. Woman. Sorry. I'm not familiarized with the names of famous comic book writers.

CaitSeith:

I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?

CritialGaming:

CaitSeith:

I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?

Don't blame me for American society being so prude that graphic violence is mainstream and lewd anime tits are niche.

CritialGaming:

CaitSeith:

I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?

  1. The cultural taboo around hyper-sexualized content in the West (and US in particular) is well-known. In fact, it's so well-known that I have a hard time seeing your post as anything other than being offended for the sake of being offended.
  2. RDR, GTA, and Mortal Kombat have 3 important qualities that push them beyond "mature anime titty game #675" in terms of general acceptance:
    • They're games first and "violence simulators" (or whatever "double-standard" you're trying to be outraged about in your post) second while matg #675 is, generally, a softcore porn simulator first and a game second.
    • They have massive advertising campaigns and/or pre-baked-in cultural acceptance from previous iterations.
    • They're high-quality productions published and/or developed by brand-name companies.

Avnger:
tldr of this thread:

gyrobot:
Fans of ecchi games have a severe persecution complex

Why a persecution complex and not just merely being perverts?

Critics don't have to respect audiences, and audiences don't have to respect critics. Everything works out in the end.

Everyone has shit taste. If you don't have shit taste, you're forming your opinions off of the general consensus of other people, which is even worse than having shit taste.

CritialGaming:

Sure it has a certain theme running through it. And like you said, it's up front about it. So it's not like you could buy the game and be surprised that it's heavy on the T&A. It's like buying a 3 million scovile hot sauce and then being surprised when the shit is hot. The damn label told you what it was, why you surprised?

Who's surprised? I'm saying its puerile, not that its surprising.

Avnger:

CritialGaming:

CaitSeith:

I mean. There is a spectrum, true, but it seems the cover doesn't reflect well where it is (otherwise probably it wouldn't be at Gamestop among the less lewd anime Switch games).

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?

  1. The cultural taboo around hyper-sexualized content in the West (and US in particular) is well-known. In fact, it's so well-known that I have a hard time seeing your post as anything other than being offended for the sake of being offended.
  2. RDR, GTA, and Mortal Kombat have 3 important qualities that push them beyond "mature anime titty game #675" in terms of general acceptance:
    • They're games first and "violence simulators" (or whatever "double-standard" you're trying to be outraged about in your post) second while matg #675 is, generally, a softcore porn simulator first and a game second.
    • They have massive advertising campaigns and/or pre-baked-in cultural acceptance from previous iterations.
    • They're high-quality productions published and/or developed by brand-name companies.

1. I'm not offended, I just didn't understand the meaning to the original statement.

2. This makes no sense. Graphic violence is okay because the games are good? This all started because the person on twitter bought what they assumed would be a shallow titty anime game and ended up having a lot of fun with it, thus making it a good game. Any game that you have fun with is by default a good game (at least to you) right? Sure you might like a faulty game, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. For example if you have fun playing Fallout 76 or Anthem, they are good games to you.

You can say games like GTA, RDR, etc are games first but the aren't marketed that way. Mortal Kombat is marketed around the fatality system, not the greatness of the fighting engine. So to say they are advertises as games first and violence second is simply not true.

The point I'm making is that just cause a game is based around anime tits, or graphic violence, or felonious activity, doesn't mean it can't be a wonderfully valid gaming experience. As Gail found out after giving the anime boob game a chance. That's all I'm saying.

Neither kind of game is more valid than the other.

CritialGaming:

CaitSeith:
snip

Amazing. It's almost like if you give a game a chance rather than judging it on face value, you might find something actually enjoyable behind it all.

I'm still surprised that people don't get that sometimes people like things because they are good. And even if you don't like a thing, doesn't mean somebody else can enjoy and like it for what it is.

For example, some people like Brussels Sprouts.

Would the opinion change if the industry had a drought of good games and we had was matgs being localized?

Because my memories of the bad old days is very much a fresh memory that no one with taste should relive

Seems to me she: 1) played it without being critical of it at every possible turn and 2) likes the framing of some of the story.

It's like you can enjoy a run through of a David Cage game if you just don't think about it much. People can enjoy ridiculous stuff even if that stuff is crap. I'll admit it's a bit annoying when enjoying things get to arguments -- I have a tendency to do that too -- there really are two kinds of people in that regard. It can also be liberating when you realize you don't have to find good arguments for why something bad is "actually good because I enjoy it" and instead just enjoy it while it's bad.

I like how this topic became "people discover this thing called 'fun' and they like it".

CritialGaming:

Avnger:

CritialGaming:

I dont understand what you mean by this? Are you implying that the Mature anime titty game shouldn't be sold at Gamestop where all the other mature games are sold? Are anime tits more mature than Red Dead Redemption, GTA, or Mortal Kombat? What are you saying?

  1. The cultural taboo around hyper-sexualized content in the West (and US in particular) is well-known. In fact, it's so well-known that I have a hard time seeing your post as anything other than being offended for the sake of being offended.
  2. RDR, GTA, and Mortal Kombat have 3 important qualities that push them beyond "mature anime titty game #675" in terms of general acceptance:
    • They're games first and "violence simulators" (or whatever "double-standard" you're trying to be outraged about in your post) second while matg #675 is, generally, a softcore porn simulator first and a game second.
    • They have massive advertising campaigns and/or pre-baked-in cultural acceptance from previous iterations.
    • They're high-quality productions published and/or developed by brand-name companies.

1. I'm not offended, I just didn't understand the meaning to the original statement.

2. This makes no sense. Graphic violence is okay because the games are good? This all started because the person on twitter bought what they assumed would be a shallow titty anime game and ended up having a lot of fun with it, thus making it a good game. Any game that you have fun with is by default a good game (at least to you) right? Sure you might like a faulty game, but that doesn't mean the game is bad. For example if you have fun playing Fallout 76 or Anthem, they are good games to you.

You can say games like GTA, RDR, etc are games first but the aren't marketed that way. Mortal Kombat is marketed around the fatality system, not the greatness of the fighting engine. So to say they are advertises as games first and violence second is simply not true.

The point I'm making is that just cause a game is based around anime tits, or graphic violence, or felonious activity, doesn't mean it can't be a wonderfully valid gaming experience. As Gail found out after giving the anime boob game a chance. That's all I'm saying.

Neither kind of game is more valid than the other.

The irony here is that when you do have someone have those elements, such as for example the hentai artist Zone working in Indivisible and putting his pornsona in the game as a merchant that sells you "odd smelling 'scrum'" (this is a real thing), you get people complaining about "brand name companies" including such people in their games and make comments along the lines of "can you not put your porn character from your porn in your not-porn videogame that's otherwise excellent".

Nobody can say that Indivisible is low quality and it's made by the Skullgirls people who are a loved brand and while the budget is not gonna be like that of something like MK it's still doing good overall.

Yet, people will still complain about those elements despite all those factors being met. And Indivisible isn't even all that suggestive, it just has a character from things that are as an easter egg. Imagine if it actually was. Something tells me people wouldn't be suddenly any more accepting of it. If anything, it being established and of high quality would work against it like how it did for Dragon's Crown for example.

Dreiko:
snip

I sometimes wonder if it just becomes nit picking at that point.

"Oh this game is amazing....if only it didn't have this terrible porno character/theme/whatever." Somebody finds everything about the game to be great, except the fanservice part. And while that's a valid opinion, it doesn't mean the game should be crucified because of it. And if someone wants to be that shallow about it, then okay, the only person they hurt is themselves by not letting them experience something that they could otherwise enjoy due to some misunderstood viewpoint.

CritialGaming:

Dreiko:
snip

I sometimes wonder if it just becomes nit picking at that point.

"Oh this game is amazing....if only it didn't have this terrible porno character/theme/whatever." Somebody finds everything about the game to be great, except the fanservice part. And while that's a valid opinion, it doesn't mean the game should be crucified because of it. And if someone wants to be that shallow about it, then okay, the only person they hurt is themselves by not letting them experience something that they could otherwise enjoy due to some misunderstood viewpoint.

Or they just don't like the thing maybe? Like, I'm getting tired of Zone-tan. Yes, yes, wink-wink, here's that porn character you saw a lot of 5 years ago, very clever. Kinda weird they show up to sell cum in a not-porn game.
but that's the extent of it. Can people complain about a thing anymore without it being shots fired in a culture war? Or hell, *like* a thing without it being some culture war shit? Gail Simone, after all, is one of those"SJWs who're ruining comics with their political correctness and pronouns"

She also thinks Gun Gun Pixies is hilarious sexy trash with some decent story elements.

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:

Dreiko:
snip

I sometimes wonder if it just becomes nit picking at that point.

"Oh this game is amazing....if only it didn't have this terrible porno character/theme/whatever." Somebody finds everything about the game to be great, except the fanservice part. And while that's a valid opinion, it doesn't mean the game should be crucified because of it. And if someone wants to be that shallow about it, then okay, the only person they hurt is themselves by not letting them experience something that they could otherwise enjoy due to some misunderstood viewpoint.

Or they just don't like the thing maybe? Like, I'm getting tired of Zone-tan. Yes, yes, wink-wink, here's that porn character you saw a lot of 5 years ago, very clever. Kinda weird they show up to sell cum in a not-porn game.
but that's the extent of it. Can people complain about a thing anymore without it being shots fired in a culture war? Or hell, *like* a thing without it being some culture war shit? Gail Simone, after all, is one of those"SJWs who're ruining comics with their political correctness and pronouns"

She also thinks Gun Gun Pixies is hilarious sexy trash with some decent story elements.

I wish we could like these games without being insulted for doing so and having implications placed upon us that question our maturity and so on. (some even make more egregious charges such as for example Zone being a CP artist or some such nonsense because he drew cartoon teenagers lol)

Just to make it clear, it wasn't the case that everything was going smoothly with our bouncing mammaries and colorful undergarments fluttering around making everyone happy and suddenly someone started being negative to someone else for being an SJW out of the ether when both persons were similarly having fun with their stripped pantyshots.

No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?

And sure, you can not like this thing. I don't like sports and racing games. Do you know what I don't do? I don't go shit on sports game fans or talk about how dull I find them on twitter and I don't go and imply some deficiency in those who do like sports games. I just do my own thing and let the sports games and those who like them be in peace. Why the need to bemoan something that's just not your thing? Why can't you just go find something you do like and play that?

Oh and if it's an element I dislike in a game I love, such as for example Blitzball in FFX (which is a pretty basic magical sports game) do you know what happens? I end up linking it at least some due to it being in an otherwise amazing thing and having that good thing's themes rub off on it. If someone is otherwise in love with Indivisible but having a random easter egg in the game somehow completely ruins that, I have to call BS on how much they liked the game if their love could be shaken so easily.

Dreiko:

No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?

Well, in this thread for instance, there's a lot more anger aimed towards the phantom critics than there is actual criticism of the game itself.

Also, I imagine the climate of antagonism has been exacerbated by politically-tinged insults like "SJW".

Silvanus:

Dreiko:

No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?

Well, in this thread for instance, there's a lot more anger aimed towards the phantom critics than there is actual criticism of the game itself.

Also, I imagine the climate of antagonism has been exacerbated by politically-tinged insults like "SJW".

Is it a phantom when the TC links to the actual critics? How can it not be a phantom if an actual cited thing (and other such examples like my mention of Indivisible and Dragon's Crown) doesn't suffice to not make it one?

SJW isn't politically tinged when uttered by people also on the left politically, it's just a personality trait descriptor in that context. Nowadays, the prudes aren't the traditional conservatives but rather the hyper-left people who are offended by sexual things because of their gendered traits and power dynamics and so on (as opposed to the BS reasons the Christians would come up with to control the lives of strangers) so it may seem political to call prudes SJWs but it's actually not, it just happens to seem that way because it's mainly one side that's doing what the religious right was doing in the 90s and if you're consistently against that side it unavoidable will come off as being political when it's actually just pro-game. It wasn't political in the 90s when we told the right to get off our violence and it's not now when we tell the SJWs to leave the anime tiddies alone.

You know how everyone jumped to point at Japan having almost no shooting deaths when some politicians tried the 90s playbook of blaming videogames for shootings in the wake of all these recent mass shootings? That's not a political act (the defense of videogames, blaming them sure is haha), that's just a factual correction that any honest individual will admit is true. We somehow are able to see telling the right that they're wrong in that sense as a simply apolitical response that is just concerned with representing reality right. The same should be possible with the unfounded SJW nonsense.

Dreiko:

Is it a phantom when the TC links to the actual critics? How can it not be a phantom if an actual cited thing (and other such examples like my mention of Indivisible and Dragon's Crown) doesn't suffice to not make it one?

Hardly a "smear" for goodness' sake. It's a relatively mild critical review-- outclassed in terms of harshness by your own comments alone.

SJW isn't politically tinged when uttered by people also on the left politically, it's just a personality trait descriptor in that context. Nowadays, the prudes aren't the traditional conservatives but rather the hyper-left people who are offended by sexual things because of their gendered traits and power dynamics and so on (as opposed to the BS reasons the Christians would come up with to control the lives of strangers) so it may seem political to call prudes SJWs but it's actually not, it just happens to seem that way because it's mainly one side that's doing what the religious right was doing in the 90s and if you're consistently against that side it unavoidable will come off as being political when it's actually just pro-game. It wasn't political in the 90s when we told the right to get off our violence and it's not now when we tell the SJWs to leave the anime tiddies alone.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that you said it's not at all political, and then in the next sentence contextualized it in reference to the "hyper-left"...

This doesn't really account for the biggest chunk of uses: you're an "SJW" if you want gay characters in games, or female protags; you're an "SJW" if you like the ones already there. I've seen people deriding others for going against the artist's vision when games are criticised as being too homogeneous or stereotyping... and then I've seen game developers themselves termed "SJWs" when they include gay characters in their own damn games.

No, the vast majority of times I've seen it hurled about, it's nothing to do with prudishness whatsoever; it's another insult in the perceived "culture war", aimed at people who're apparently being too loud about what they like & don't like. Bollocks.

Silvanus:

Dreiko:

Is it a phantom when the TC links to the actual critics? How can it not be a phantom if an actual cited thing (and other such examples like my mention of Indivisible and Dragon's Crown) doesn't suffice to not make it one?

Hardly a "smear" for goodness' sake. It's a relatively mild critical review-- outclassed in terms of harshness by your own comments alone.

SJW isn't politically tinged when uttered by people also on the left politically, it's just a personality trait descriptor in that context. Nowadays, the prudes aren't the traditional conservatives but rather the hyper-left people who are offended by sexual things because of their gendered traits and power dynamics and so on (as opposed to the BS reasons the Christians would come up with to control the lives of strangers) so it may seem political to call prudes SJWs but it's actually not, it just happens to seem that way because it's mainly one side that's doing what the religious right was doing in the 90s and if you're consistently against that side it unavoidable will come off as being political when it's actually just pro-game. It wasn't political in the 90s when we told the right to get off our violence and it's not now when we tell the SJWs to leave the anime tiddies alone.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that you said it's not at all political, and then in the next sentence contextualized it in reference to the "hyper-left"...

This doesn't really account for the biggest chunk of uses: you're an "SJW" if you want gay characters in games, or female protags; you're an "SJW" if you like the ones already there. I've seen people deriding others for going against the artist's vision when games are criticised as being too homogeneous or stereotyping... and then I've seen game developers themselves termed "SJWs" when they include gay characters in their own damn games.

No, the vast majority of times I've seen it hurled about, it's nothing to do with prudishness whatsoever; it's another insult in the perceived "culture war", aimed at people who're apparently being too loud about what they like & don't like. Bollocks.

You're not an SJW for liking a gay character, you're only an SJW for liking a gay character because they're gay. Similarly, you're not one if you want good characters and are open to them being gay as long as they primarily are just good characters and are made not to enhance diversity or inclusion but just because they fit the artistic vision the creators had for their game.

People don't dislike any and all gay characters being included, they dislike the ones who are included as a political act or to virtue signal or to seem open minded, because when these chars are added those issues take center stage and the actually important aspects of coherence in the universe and them being well-written and so on take a back seat, which is anti game because it treats making a good game as less important than advancing a social cause. It treats games as tools for propaganda, as means to a different end, not as end in and of themselves.

I'll give you a good example. There's this mage dude in Dragon Age Inquisition. You meet him during a really cool part of the game and he's witty and silly and all in all a cool dude. Eventually it turns out he's also gay. We're cool up to that part, very well-done character, promising. Lets see what epic thing he gets around to in his backstory/sidequest part...gay conversion therapy...really? You have this cool character and this epic universe with dragons and demons and so on...and the best thing you could come up with to give this character as a backstory is...magical gay conversion therapy and reconciling with his conservative dad? Could this be any more trite and mundane? Not to mention disappointing. Did anyone actually think such a storyline is in any way compelling in the context of high fantasy? Or was it just something appealing to write to seem progressive and cool with the gay folks, damn the character and his promise?

Being against gay characters being included just for being gay is for the sake of the gay characters who are actually just good characters and happen to be gay too. They benefit from such a stance just as much.

Dreiko:

You're not an SJW for liking a gay character, you're only an SJW for liking a gay character because they're gay. Similarly, you're not one if you want good characters and are open to them being gay as long as they primarily are just good characters and are made not to enhance diversity or inclusion but just because they fit the artistic vision the creators had for their game.

People don't dislike any and all gay characters being included, they dislike the ones who are included as a political act or to virtue signal or to seem open minded, because when these chars are added those issues take center stage and the actually important aspects of coherence in the universe and them being well-written and so on take a back seat, which is anti game because it treats making a good game as less important than advancing a social cause. It treats games as tools for propaganda, as means to a different end, not as end in and of themselves.

When you say "those issues take centre stage", am I to understand that you don't want games to approach any LGBT themes then?Gay characters are alright... if they're just quiet about being gay and it never comes up?

The fact is it doesn't seem to matter. The "SJW" line comes flying out regardless of how the character is presented. If they discuss gay stuff, then people moan because they're "shoving it down our throats", "virtue signalling", etc etc. If the character doesn't discuss any gay stuff, and it just seems incidental, then people moan because "there's no reason for them to be gay", "why make them gay", "it's tokenism".

Nope, honestly, I've never-- not once-- seen a gay character who hasn't been received with the same anti-"SJW" drivel, and I'm inclined to believe the people who tend to throw that term around just don't want certain kinds of people in their games at all.

Dreiko:

I'll give you a good example. There's this mage dude in Dragon Age Inquisition. You meet him during a really cool part of the game and he's witty and silly and all in all a cool dude. Eventually it turns out he's also gay. We're cool up to that part, very well-done character, promising. Lets see what epic thing he gets around to in his backstory/sidequest part...gay conversion therapy...really? You have this cool character and this epic universe with dragons and demons and so on...and the best thing you could come up with to give this character as a backstory is...magical gay conversion therapy and reconciling with his conservative dad? Could this be any more trite and mundane? Not to mention disappointing. Did anyone actually think such a storyline is in any way compelling in the context of high fantasy? Or was it just something appealing to write to seem progressive and cool with the gay folks, damn the character and his promise?

You find conversion therapy as a theme in a game to be "trite and mundane"? Even though it's extremely rarely approached in games, if ever?

Why does that particular quest need to be exclusively linked to high fantasy? Hundreds of fantasy RPG quests aren't fantasy-specific. You get fantasy quests about heirlooms, about lost parents, about finding treasure, about blackmail, about bandits, about fucking anything. But suddenly, if it has a gay theme in it-- something which actually hits pretty fucking close to home for a lot of gay people-- then it's "trite" and "not in context". No, fuck that, you're applying a nonsensical standard.

Dreiko:

Being against gay characters being included just for being gay is for the sake of the gay characters who are actually just good characters and happen to be gay too. They benefit from such a stance just as much.

I'm sure you approach straight characters in the same way. Why include them just for being straight, eh? I'll remember that next time a straight game character won't STFU about their wife/ GF, since romance (well, straight romance) seems to be almost a requisite in most modern media.

Dreiko:

No, what happened was you have a history of people trying to smear other people for what they like, which is now finally getting the deserved reaction in being decried as prudish. Gail Simone liking this basically shows everyone ELSE for being an SJW and having no ground to stand on, nobody's mad at her. We're just acknowledging that if someone who isn't already an SJW were to make a post praising the story of GGP about its themes regarding bulimia, they'd be waved of as a creep trying desperately to justify their porn.

How can that not breed a climate of antagonism?

1) The gal with the eating problem is 20, proving you can actually do this sort of thing without perving on high school kids. (Incidentally, every other character you perv on is either 15 or 17, which fuck me, I guess. I'd heard otherwise until I bought it and opened the art book. Fucking hell)
2) from the SJWs I follow, they've got no problems being horny on main if it doesn't involve children

Dreiko:

If someone is otherwise in love with Indivisible but having a random easter egg in the game somehow completely ruins that, I have to call BS on how much they liked the game if their love could be shaken so easily.

Not a thing that happened. Just people complaining about that specific part. Because you don't have to ignore a thing's flaws in order to love it.

Silvanus:

When you say "those issues take centre stage", am I to understand that you don't want games to approach any LGBT themes then?Gay characters are alright... if they're just quiet about being gay and it never comes up?

The fact is it doesn't seem to matter. The "SJW" line comes flying out regardless of how the character is presented. If they discuss gay stuff, then people moan because they're "shoving it down our throats", "virtue signalling", etc etc. If the character doesn't discuss any gay stuff, and it just seems incidental, then people moan because "there's no reason for them to be gay", "why make them gay", "it's tokenism".

Nope, honestly, I've never-- not once-- seen a gay character who hasn't been received with the same anti-"SJW" drivel, and I'm inclined to believe the people who tend to throw that term around just don't want certain kinds of people in their games at all.

Right so, whether it befits such themes to take center stage will ultimately depend on the type of game you have and the sort of story. In persona 2 innocent sin you have a gay party member that's pretty clearly into the protagonist, and it fits just fine. In FFXIII you have Fang and Vanille and Fang was initially made to be a dude but they ended up making them both girls and absolutely nobody complained about them being as close as they were (Fang in fact is my fav char in the whole game). But when you have certain themes and terminology that really doesn't belong in the world narrative just appear it feels trite and artificial. Ultimately it's about not being lazy and trying to go for easy virtue points.

The "why make them gay" thing is idiotic btw, it's the same answer that you get to "why make this magician a 12 year old girl", you do that cause the artist wanted to. I never supported that. You're free to think a choice is bad but you don't get to question it, if you don't like it make your own game.

You find conversion therapy as a theme in a game to be "trite and mundane"? Even though it's extremely rarely approached in games, if ever?

Why does that particular quest need to be exclusively linked to high fantasy? Hundreds of fantasy RPG quests aren't fantasy-specific. You get fantasy quests about heirlooms, about lost parents, about finding treasure, about blackmail, about bandits, about fucking anything. But suddenly, if it has a gay theme in it-- something which actually hits pretty fucking close to home for a lot of gay people-- then it's "trite" and "not in context". No, fuck that, you're applying a nonsensical standard.

Ok so I need to clarify, this isn't any old basic sidequest in an rpg. This is a special set of important sidequests that act as the supporting cast's main story in a sense, how you resolve them has huge impact, may cause you to enter romance with the party member or become enemies and have them leave the party or have them gain new jobs. There's this one dude who you choose between letting all his old comrades die and tie him back to his homeland's religious war or not for example. They're the most important sort of sidequest in the game basically. They are cut from a different cloth than the typical "go kill 10 wolves and bring me their pelts" sort.

And the reason gay conversion therapy is trite is that it doesn't actually fit in the world. The DA world is pretty open and accepting to gay people. The idea that you'd even try to magically un-gay someone through a ritual makes absolutely no sense in the world either. This was all conjured up to give the people in the real world something to feel virtuous about playing. This isn't the same as you being able to kill the KKK in red dead 2, the KKK being in that game actually fits and makes sense and Arthur would take them out indeed.

altnameJag:

1) The gal with the eating problem is 20, proving you can actually do this sort of thing without perving on high school kids. (Incidentally, every other character you perv on is either 15 or 17, which fuck me, I guess. I'd heard otherwise until I bought it and opened the art book. Fucking hell)
2) from the SJWs I follow, they've got no problems being horny on main if it doesn't involve children

I...don't think this proves what you think it does.

See, if you need to read the artbook to ascertain someone being not of age and you can't do that through seeing the character, then they all quack like ducks either way and complaining about their fictional age which has no impact is indeed virtue signaling.

What you probably heard was that this took place in an academy and not in a highschool, what you didn't realize probably is that in Japan there can be all girl academies that go from grade school all the way into college, all in one campus, and that you can have people from all such age groups living there.

Calling it an "academy" is basically them bypassing the stringent and arbitrarily dumb standards some localities set against depicting particularly schoolgirls in lewd situations. They literally have to do nothing beyond calling it something different and going on with their day lol.

And no 15-17 year olds are not children. Depending on where you happen to be born at it's even in the age of consent (15 was where I was born for example) and this is about real people. Anime/game characters are not real people or children even if they are drawn to resemble them. They don't have ages of consent outside of the fictional ones in whatever world they exist in.

Not a thing that happened. Just people complaining about that specific part. Because you don't have to ignore a thing's flaws in order to love it.

Actually saw tweets about people not getting the game any more due to Zone-tan, so it did happen lol.

Dreiko:

I...don't think this proves what you think it does.

See, if you need to read the artbook to ascertain someone being not of age and you can't do that through seeing the character, then they all quack like ducks either way and complaining about their fictional age which has no impact is indeed virtue signaling.

It's not that hard man: I got a rule that says no kids

Dreiko:

What you probably heard was that this took place in an academy and not in a highschool, what you didn't realize probably is that in Japan there can be all girl academies that go from grade school all the way into college, all in one campus, and that you can have people from all such age groups living there.

Calling it an "academy" is basically them bypassing the stringent and arbitrarily dumb standards some localities set against depicting particularly schoolgirls in lewd situations. They literally have to do nothing beyond calling it something different and going on with their day lol.

I heard they were adults. And I don't think standards against sexualizing kids are dumb. And you're right: if that art book had the magic gal listed as 19, I *would* be going about my day, happy that the game I bought doesn't involve bringing a child to orgasm. But they couldn't even clear that low, low bar, and just had to include a character that couldn't consent by Japanese law.

It's disappointing and more than a little creepy.

Dreiko:

And no 15-17 year olds are not children. Depending on where you happen to be born at it's even in the age of consent (15 was where I was born for example) and this is about real people. Anime/game characters are not real people or children even if they are drawn to resemble them. They don't have ages of consent outside of the fictional ones in whatever world they exist in.

Ah yes, the famously fictional world of Japan, where anybody younger than 18 is legally a child.
The age of consent is not the age of adulthood. Some provinces recognize that teens are going to have sex with each other and set consent at 16 or 17, other provinces ride that line all the way up to 18. Hell, you can't get married in Japan if you're less than 20 without parental approval.

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