Death Stranding reviews

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CaitSeith:


In other words, he was speculating the difference between European and American critics. If the situation was just "not liking the game because not liking the game" like you said, the reception would had been uniformly mixed all over the globe. It isn't, and the interviewer wanted to know Kojima's opinion about it.

Sure, not all Americans are shooter fans who spend their time in CoD, Overwatch or Fortnite and don't have time to try games that their friends aren't playing; but there are enough there to make American mainstream preferences different to the ones in Italy and France.

Or is any of what I just said false?

Kojima is acting like 83 percent with 85 professional reviews and 6.7 out of 10 from 8630 personal reviews (at the time of typing this) is a questionable review.

Compare that with COD modern warfare (81 percent with 68 professional reviews and 3.2 with 7419 personal reviews), Battlefield V (73 percent with 23 professional reviews and 2.3 with 2057 personal reviews), or Borderlands 3 (81 percent with 50 professional reviews and 5.6 with 2086 personal reviews)

That's actually great.

Death Stranding ranked higher than the big FPSs of the year. Both with professional and personal reviews. Games designed by western developers.

What is the actual conversation he's trying to have? "It should have been higher"? It's already doing great and is sparking conversation like no other game this decade. How is that not enough?

ObsidianJones:

CaitSeith:


In other words, he was speculating the difference between European and American critics. If the situation was just "not liking the game because not liking the game" like you said, the reception would had been uniformly mixed all over the globe. It isn't, and the interviewer wanted to know Kojima's opinion about it.

Sure, not all Americans are shooter fans who spend their time in CoD, Overwatch or Fortnite and don't have time to try games that their friends aren't playing; but there are enough there to make American mainstream preferences different to the ones in Italy and France.

Or is any of what I just said false?

Kojima is acting like 83 percent with 85 professional reviews and 6.7 out of 10 from 8630 personal reviews (at the time of typing this) is a questionable review.

Compare that with COD modern warfare (81 percent with 68 professional reviews and 3.2 with 7419 personal reviews), Battlefield V (73 percent with 23 professional reviews and 2.3 with 2057 personal reviews), or Borderlands 3 (81 percent with 50 professional reviews and 5.6 with 2086 personal reviews)

That's actually great.

Death Stranding ranked higher than the big FPSs of the year. Both with professional and personal reviews. Games designed by western developers.

What is the actual conversation he's trying to have? "It should have been higher"? It's already doing great and is sparking conversation like no other game this decade. How is that not enough?

I tend to cut mainstream "auteurs" some slack when it come to interviews. I'm sure anyone in this thread would end up with egg on their face if they were subjected to constant interviews.

I can see where he is coming from in regards to metacritc. Metacritic is a bad site and its bad for critically analyzing games. It boils down the games to an arbitrary number which is used as some arbitrary indicator of quality. All it tells you is if the game had some sort of controversy because brigading has become such a common way to express frustration. I appreciate the research you did but these metrics are almost meaningless. Unless the same exact reviewers and users participated you can't compare the different metacritic performances.

The general audience that Kojima seems to be targeting(for some bizarre reason...pressure from Sony?) aren't going to see the nuanced opinions for and against his game, they will see the user score and base most of their purchasing decision on that.

Dansen:
I tend to cut mainstream "auteurs" some slack when it come to interviews. I'm sure anyone in this thread would end up with egg on their face if they were subjected to constant interviews.

I can see where he is coming from in regards to metacritc. Metacritic is a bad site and its bad for critically analyzing games. It boils down the games to an arbitrary number which is used as some arbitrary indicator of quality. All it tells you is if the game had some sort of controversy because brigading has become such a common way to express frustration. I appreciate the research you did but these metrics are almost meaningless. Unless the same exact reviewers and users participated you can't compare the different metacritic performances.

The general audience that Kojima seems to be targeting(for some bizarre reason...pressure from Sony?) aren't going to see the nuanced opinions for and against his game, they will see the user score and base most of their purchasing decision on that.

I personally don't use it. My favorite Critic is ACG as his reviews are usually personally in line with my own tastes.

But never the less, the site is a collection of reviews with a semi-questionably moderated user review side. And even with all of that, Death Stranding still managed to do better than most of the AAA lot. I personally count User Reviews for video games lower than most other critical reviews, but in the efforts of fairness I collected that data as well.

My personal views of the sites that Metacritic collected, the User audience on the site, or the very site itself all aside... Death Stranding's reviews are all still positive. All your qualms are probably justified, but it still is just a site linking other people's reviews. And if we're talking about the broad spectrum of feelings for Death Stranding the game, it's just literally a portal to professional critics reviews.

What it is supposed to do is take the average of reviews and puts that number up. That's not arbitrary. That's just math. It would be another thing if they simply made up the scores. Like if Breath of the Wild got 90s and 100s across the board and then Metacritic put up a score of 78. That's arbitrary. But barring some controversy I haven't heard about, they simply don't do that.

But to your argument of if potential consumers will do what you suggested, that's a different topic. And one that maybe does bare weighing out. But that situation is different than just lumping a population to be mainly only interested in first person shooters and using that as an excuse.

The Problem here is that you can not Critique Art Objectively. There are people who look at Mark Rothko's No. 10 or Untitled (Yellow and Blue) and will have a myriad of feelings. Some will think their 10 year old not only could have done that, but has. Some will see it and be moved for a moment, and be glad for the experience. Some others will feel that these pieces are worth millions of dollars. And those people will have paid $81.9 miillion and 46.5 million dollars for a grand total of 128.4 million dollars.

No one here is wrong.

Art is what it is to you.

Yes. Not everyone will vibe with what Kojima is putting out. That is the very substance of Art. But to be that guy suggesting "More refined Palate will resonate with it" makes me roll my eyes.

My favorite Group of All Times is "A Tribe Called Quest". It isn't even a race. Flat out the hands down winner. And I don't like all of their songs. That doesn't make me a poser. That doesn't mean if I didn't love the musical genre of Drum and Bass as much as I do, I would have more appreciation for the Wonderfully Jazzy Blend of Hip-Hop that is the Tribe's sound. It means some songs missed it for me.

And it's unfair and quite absurd to even suggest that my love of Drum and Bass will prevent me from completely accepting every bit of A Tribe Called Quest discography. And that's what I feel Kojima is hinting at here. I can't stress enough that I'm not saying that this is what he outright said. But what the sense of Kojima's overall message (as it reads with the current translations) is thus to me: "If the West wasn't so in love with FPSs, they could possibly embrace this more".

That's a cop out.

Yoshi178:
usually the only games that get hype because of publishers are sequels to already established franchise's.

That isn't true at all. From 2019 alone: Outer Worlds, Apex Legends, Control, Anthem, Days Gone, Daemon X Machina... I've heard of all of these initially because of publisher involvement. It'll have resulted in coverage and screen-time, among other things.

Of course, I'm not going to buy them necessarily for that reason, but they're on my radar for that reason. But if I know a particular developer I like is involved-- like, say, Miyazaki with Sekiro-- then that's going to affect my purchase decision with better reason.

ObsidianJones:

CaitSeith:


In other words, he was speculating the difference between European and American critics. If the situation was just "not liking the game because not liking the game" like you said, the reception would had been uniformly mixed all over the globe. It isn't, and the interviewer wanted to know Kojima's opinion about it.

Sure, not all Americans are shooter fans who spend their time in CoD, Overwatch or Fortnite and don't have time to try games that their friends aren't playing; but there are enough there to make American mainstream preferences different to the ones in Italy and France.

Or is any of what I just said false?

Kojima is acting like 83 percent with 85 professional reviews and 6.7 out of 10 from 8630 personal reviews (at the time of typing this) is a questionable review.

Compare that with COD modern warfare (81 percent with 68 professional reviews and 3.2 with 7419 personal reviews), Battlefield V (73 percent with 23 professional reviews and 2.3 with 2057 personal reviews), or Borderlands 3 (81 percent with 50 professional reviews and 5.6 with 2086 personal reviews)

That's actually great.

Death Stranding ranked higher than the big FPSs of the year. Both with professional and personal reviews. Games designed by western developers.

What is the actual conversation he's trying to have? "It should have been higher"? It's already doing great and is sparking conversation like no other game this decade. How is that not enough?

He was probably contrasting it to the unanimous praise his "other" series has gotten.

Welcome back to the 80's, Hideo.

Silvanus:

Yoshi178:
usually the only games that get hype because of publishers are sequels to already established franchise's.

That isn't true at all. From 2019 alone: Outer Worlds, Apex Legends, Control, Anthem, Days Gone, Daemon X Machina... I've heard of all of these initially because of publisher involvement. It'll have resulted in coverage and screen-time, among other things.

Of course, I'm not going to buy them necessarily for that reason, but they're on my radar for that reason. But if I know a particular developer I like is involved-- like, say, Miyazaki with Sekiro-- then that's going to affect my purchase decision with better reason.

i don't know about the other games, but Daemon X Machina was never hyped by the public.

all that games marketing ever did was make people go go "oh it's a new mech type game from Nintendo, that might be cool" it was never hyped up like other stuff they put out like Smash Bros, Luigi's Mansion or Animal Crossing. not even close.

Yoshi178:
i don't know about the other games, but Daemon X Machina was never hyped by the public.

all that games marketing ever did was make people go go "oh it's a new mech type game from Nintendo, that might be cool" it was never hyped up like other stuff they put out like Smash Bros, Luigi's Mansion or Animal Crossing. not even close.

Uhrm, I'm not saying it was "hyped" (though I have seen publicity for it). I'm saying that I heard about it because of publisher involvement.

Also, it's third-party, it's not from Nintendo.

ObsidianJones:

What is the actual conversation he's trying to have?

PS: Are you aware that the metacritic score includes reviews from countries other than America?

Silvanus:

SNIP

not by the public it wasn't.

Obviously any marketing the game has is trying to "hype" itself but that's not what I was talking about at all.

Yoshi178:
not by the public it wasn't.

Obviously any marketing the game has is trying to "hype" itself but that's not what I was talking about at all.

Ok. And all those others I listed, which are widely known as a result of their publisher?

...In fact, why is this thing about the public hyping a game relevant at all? My original argument was that we know about most games because of publisher involvement. Whether the public hypes it isn't of much importance to that line of argument.

Yoshi178:

Silvanus:

Yoshi178:
No one would have cared about this game at all if it weren't for Kojima's input.

Well, sure, but the only reason we hear about most newly released games is down to the publisher. Hearing about it because of a developer/ creator's input is a lot more sensible than hearing about it because of a publisher.

usually the only games that get hype because of publishers are sequels to already established franchise's.

new IP's just only ever get attention through word of mouth and mainly after the titles released, for example: Untitled Goose game, it got advertised, but no ever gave a shit about it or spoke about until it had basically come out and then spread through word of mouth because "ha ha, mean silly goose is a hilarous meme! lol"

i don't think anybody even knew what the actual genre of Death Stranding was throughout its entire marketing campaign and the only reason its ever got any attention is because "hey it's that new Kojima game that i have no idea what it's about but because Kojima made it it MUST be good"

edit: also this:

I was more concerned about Kojima having this bizarre, acephobic, rape culture-laden rant in the game:

https://twitter.com/They_Goblin/status/1193262755232571392

That's...that's not a good look. Then again there have been warning signs about this guy for years, but people just wrote it off as "He's just eccentric."

Oh my god, some of you guys are ridiculous. If you analyze anybody like this, you ain't going to like anybody.

1st some Italian article translated at least twice from Japanese to Italian and then to English (assuming no ones knows Italian here). There's several phrases and whatnot that don't properly even translate out of Japanese, let alone over 2 languages. Without looking up the numbers (because I really couldn't care less), I'm pretty sure FPSs are more popular in America than anywhere else.

2nd that entry from Death Stranding (from an in-game character mind you) via the Twitter link said NOTHING about queers yet the 1st post or response or whatever (I don't fucking use Twitter because of dumb shit exactly like this) is... "'queers exist because people are terrified of emotional connections' - Hideo Kojima"

Kojima is totally the worst person ever and hates Americans and queers, especially American queers... [/sarcasm]

This is exactly what MGS2 is literally about...

Phoenixmgs:
Oh my god, some of you guys are ridiculous. If you analyze anybody like this, you ain't going to like anybody.

1st some Italian article translated at least twice from Japanese to Italian and then to English (assuming no ones knows Italian here). There's several phrases and whatnot that don't properly even translate out of Japanese, let alone over 2 languages. Without looking up the numbers (because I really couldn't care less), I'm pretty sure FPSs are more popular in America than anywhere else.

2nd that entry from Death Stranding (from an in-game character mind you) via the Twitter link said NOTHING about queers yet the 1st post or response or whatever (I don't fucking use Twitter because of dumb shit exactly like this) is... "'queers exist because people are terrified of emotional connections' - Hideo Kojima"

Kojima is totally the worst person ever and hates Americans and queers, especially American queers... [/sarcasm]

This is exactly what MGS2 is literally about...

Firstly: there's nothing in the game to refute that piece of text. Nothing in the game's themes argues against it nor is there even something as simple as a character saying "This is complete bullshit." If there is no refutation, then that argument is seen as equally valid even though everything known about asexuality debunks junk science like that. It's the same kind of queer-bashing rhetoric that claims "You're not having kids, it's your duty to have kids!" Then there's Poe's Law and other stuff.

Secondly: this is not the first instance of Kojima having troubling depictions of queer people in his games. Vamp: bi character who's also a murderous psychopath that revels in violence and a lot of said violence has a sexualized bent to it. Raikov: flamboyant gay stereotype that was made to bash Raiden (because complained of him being "girly") and whose sole purpose is to be beaten up by Naked Snake. Volgin: bi man who's a sadist who engages in sexualized violence.

Kojima NEVER does this with his protagonists, only his antagonists. That is not a good thing. There have always been warning signs with this guy and they've only gotten harder to ignore.

And of course, there's the whole "associating sexual violence with libido." It's not; sexual assault is not linked to sex, it's linked to power dynamics, we've known that for years.

Aiddon:
Firstly: there's nothing in the game to refute that piece of text... It's the same kind of queer-bashing rhetoric...

"I must preempt myself by admitting that I do not have any empirical data" - excerpt from entry in question

Again, queers weren't even mentioned in said entry...

Aiddon:
Secondly: this is not the first instance of Kojima having troubling depictions of queer people in his games... Kojima NEVER does this with his protagonists, only his antagonists.

Dr. Strangelove + Alan Turing praise?!?!...

Phoenixmgs:
Oh my god, some of you guys are ridiculous. If you analyze anybody like this, you ain't going to like anybody.

1st some Italian article translated at least twice from Japanese to Italian and then to English (assuming no ones knows Italian here). There's several phrases and whatnot that don't properly even translate out of Japanese, let alone over 2 languages. Without looking up the numbers (because I really couldn't care less), I'm pretty sure FPSs are more popular in America than anywhere else.

2nd that entry from Death Stranding (from an in-game character mind you) via the Twitter link said NOTHING about queers yet the 1st post or response or whatever (I don't fucking use Twitter because of dumb shit exactly like this) is... "'queers exist because people are terrified of emotional connections' - Hideo Kojima"

Kojima is totally the worst person ever and hates Americans and queers, especially American queers... [/sarcasm]

This is exactly what MGS2 is literally about...

*shrugs* That's how people are. That's how you are.

I can guess I'm one of these people you're calling Ridiculous. And I'm fine with that. But comparatively, you've had 3057 chances to get an idea of my personality, my point of view, and how I normally comport myself. And if in truth I'm one of these people you've made a judgement on being ridiculous based on what happened in this thread, it's one expression from literally thousands.

How is that any different than how any of us feel about Kojima? For or against?

Phoenixmgs:

"I must preempt myself by admitting that I do not have any empirical data" - excerpt from entry in question

Again, queers weren't even mentioned in said entry...

Ace people are queer. And that last sentence does not invalidate that document. Again, there is NOTHING in the game that actually refutes the rest of that.

ObsidianJones:

Dansen:
I tend to cut mainstream "auteurs" some slack....

I personally don't use it. My favorite Critic is ACG as his reviews are usually personally in line with my own tastes.

But never the less, the site is a collection of reviews with a semi-questionably moderated user review side. And even with all of that, Death Stranding still managed to do better than most of the AAA lot. I personally count User Reviews for video games lower than most other critical reviews, but in the efforts of fairness I collected that data as well.

My personal views of the sites that Metacritic collected, the User audience on the site, or the very site itself all aside... Death Stranding's reviews are all still positive. All your qualms are probably justified, but it still is just a site linking other people's reviews. And if we're talking about the broad spectrum of feelings for Death Stranding the game, it's just literally a portal to professional critics reviews.

What it is supposed to do is take the average of reviews and puts that number up. That's not arbitrary. That's just math. It would be another thing if they simply made up the scores. Like if Breath of the Wild got 90s and 100s across the board and then Metacritic put up a score of 78. That's arbitrary. But barring some controversy I haven't heard about, they simply don't do that.

But to your argument of if potential consumers will do what you suggested, that's a different topic. And one that maybe does bare weighing out. But that situation is different than just lumping a population to be mainly only interested in first person shooters and using that as an excuse.

The Problem here is that you can not Critique Art Objectively. There are people who look at Mark Rothko's No. 10 or Untitled (Yellow and Blue) and will have a myriad of feelings. Some will think their 10 year old not only could have done that, but has. Some will see it and be moved for a moment, and be glad for the experience. Some others will feel that these pieces are worth millions of dollars. And those people will have paid $81.9 miillion and 46.5 million dollars for a grand total of 128.4 million dollars.

No one here is wrong.

Art is what it is to you.

Yes. Not everyone will vibe with what Kojima is putting out. That is the very substance of Art. But to be that guy suggesting "More refined Palate will resonate with it" makes me roll my eyes.

And it's unfair and quite absurd to even suggest that my love of Drum and Bass will prevent me from completely accepting every bit of A Tribe Called Quest discography. And that's what I feel Kojima is hinting at here. I can't stress enough that I'm not saying that this is what he outright said. But what the sense of Kojima's overall message (as it reads with the current translations) is thus to me: "If the West wasn't so in love with FPSs, they could possibly embrace this more".

That's a cop out.

I've just taken a deep dive into stats this semester so I can tell you with certainty that Metacritic is useless when it comes to gauging enjoyment. The average score just tells you the average rating among people who opted to vote on meta critic for that game. The key here is that your sample of users/critics sibmitting scores isnt the same across games. There is nothing to compare it to. You are getting the reactions of a different audience everytime.

As you suggested, Its stupid to try and quantify something as subjective as the quality of art but that's what metacritic tries to do and it does so poorly. Outlets that submit reviews aren't consistent and even among the outlets writers change. The strength of critics lies in consistency which is totally absent on the site.

Casual audiences use the meaningless metric to form purchasing decisions . My point is that I understand his frustration with the metacritic scores and it is justified.

His explination on the other hand much less so. I dunno I just can't find it in me to be annoyed with something like that. It's completely baseless and far from reality but im sure the weight of this game is crushing. If it fails he is done as a AAA game dev. So what if he thinks Americans have less refined tastes in gaming? Dude is probably panicking and looking for a way to keep his credibility. It's lame and a cop out but I just can't bring myself to get peeved over such a stupid statement.

Your reaction is fair. I've probably just been inoculated to bullshit like this growing up with a father who made statements like this regularly.

ObsidianJones:
*shrugs* That's how people are. That's how you are.

I can guess I'm one of these people you're calling Ridiculous. And I'm fine with that. But comparatively, you've had 3057 chances to get an idea of my personality, my point of view, and how I normally comport myself. And if in truth I'm one of these people you've made a judgement on being ridiculous based on what happened in this thread, it's one expression from literally thousands.

How is that any different than how any of us feel about Kojima? For or against?

A twice translated interview is just not going to convey the exact intended sentiment. Even worst case scenario that Kojima believes American gamers aren't as into his game as much other countries' gamers because they like shooters more. And...? I wouldn't be surprised if sales figures back up that stereotype honestly. Generalizing is what human brain does, we all do it. Plus, it's like peanuts compared to the current Blizzard thing.

I don't really get the point in wasting time on such things, life is too short. And, it kinda delves into 'picking apart everything someone says' territory, and everyone comes off bad when you do that.

Aiddon:

Phoenixmgs:

"I must preempt myself by admitting that I do not have any empirical data" - excerpt from entry in question

Again, queers weren't even mentioned in said entry...

Ace people are queer. And that last sentence does not invalidate that document. Again, there is NOTHING in the game that actually refutes the rest of that.

Queer growing up for me just meant gay, now it means everything apparently.

If someone came up to you and said what-have-you, then finished with "but I ain't got shit to back that up"; would walk away feeling what they said was valid or invalid? I'm pretty sure most anyone would heavily lean to it being bullshit. Thus, just reading that entry on it's own (as I haven't played the game at all), the end line totally invalidates the document. If you are looking for the "author's message/intent", that last line is basically it. Plus, it's an in-game character, it's not like a Kojima interview, and that entry may have not even been written by Kojima. Again, I haven't played the game, but I'm very very much doubting anyone is a going to walk away after playing the game thinking the queers caused the "death stranding".

Dansen:
I've just taken a deep dive into stats this semester so I can tell you with certainty that Metacritic is useless when it comes to gauging enjoyment. The average score just tells you the average rating among people who opted to vote on meta critic for that game. The key here is that your sample of users/critics sibmitting scores isnt the same across games. There is nothing to compare it to. You are getting the reactions of a different audience everytime.

As you suggested, Its stupid to try and quantify something as subjective as the quality of art but that's what metacritic tries to do and it does so poorly. Outlets that submit reviews aren't consistent and even among the outlets writers change. The strength of critics lies in consistency which is totally absent on the site.

Casual audiences use the meaningless metric to form purchasing decisions . My point is that I understand his frustration with the metacritic scores and it is justified.

His explination on the other hand much less so. I dunno I just can't find it in me to be annoyed with something like that. It's completely baseless and far from reality but im sure the weight of this game is crushing. If it fails he is done as a AAA game dev. So what if he thinks Americans have less refined tastes in gaming? Dude is probably panicking and looking for a way to keep his credibility. It's lame and a cop out but I just can't bring myself to get peeved over such a stupid statement.

Your reaction is fair. I've probably just been inoculated to bullshit like this growing up with a father who made statements like this regularly.

Oddly enough, I agree with a lot of what you say... and it makes me value Metacritic even more. I'll never use it. This actually has probably been the most I've ever been on the website. But the idea of even more of a variety of opinions about a plethora of subjective things makes more sense to me than an Objective Singular Voice trying to speak on that very same plethora.

I should not talk about sports games because I hate sports. I'm not the guy you want to talk on a twitch shooter like the Cod Series, but I might be the guy you want to speak about if you're interested in games like Fallout or the Outer Worlds, and so on. But I am the type of guy who will click on at least ten reviews to get an idea. You should see how many videos I watch on games I can even pick up on sale.

For every Switch Game that I'm interested in, I look at Switch Watch, SwitchUp, RGT 85, ACG (I pray that he has something on it), Nintendo Life, Wulff Den, Spawn Wave, BeatEmUps, and SwitchPlanet. I will watch at least five reviews from any of those channels for one game... And THEN I sometimes look at the mainstream video channels while reading reviews...

I understand finite and consistent sampling size in terms of measuring scientific data. That needs to be repeatable and clearly defined. But Science is Objective. Whether I'm going to laugh at Borderlands 3's toilet humor is subjective. As are all Critiques. Anyone who just looks at the Metacritic number and not realize the average doesn't give the whole story is short changing themselves.

Metacritic is supposed to be a tool. A repository to find all the reviews you can and looking through a good deal of those pages to get a feel for the overall sentiment on said subject matter. That number is only supposed to state that the majority of reviewers had positive things to say, and it's up to you as the consumer to find out exactly what those things are and see if they will sit with your sensibilities. Those misusing it have only themselves to blame.

I'll fully admit to this response being a visceral one. I'm not a fan of his, but I respect him. I respected him for standing what he believed in and breaking ties with a secure paychecck. I respect him and his body of work to be able to leverage it to a new studio and the creation of his dream project. I might not like it, but I will respect the game of Death Stranding.

But Kojima went out of his way to make a game that challenged conventions and then he is shocked that it wasn't wholeheartedly embraced by the masses? How does that track? I mean personally, I go out of my way to try to be respectful to everyone here, end situations before they get out of hand and state my thoughts in an above-the-board manner. And there are still people here who probably can't stand me. Hell, most of the posters here probably don't even think about me.

That's fine. It's to be expected. I would be a proper knob if I said "You know, posters nowadays skew a little more to the jaded type of communication, so that's why I'm not more popular here". The sentiment that Kojima expressed sounds way too close to that to me.

Phoenixmgs:

but I'm very very much doubting anyone is a going to walk away after playing the game thinking the queers caused the "death stranding".

Hate to break it to ya, but that IS what the game is saying. It's basically equating queerness (including asexuality, which is queer because it does not conform to heterosexual orientation norms) to social distance and isolation. This is why there's nothing in the game that refutes that document; it's because the game finds it to be equally valid or validates it entirely. Not a good luck, so you can stop digging that hole for yourself

Aiddon:

I was more concerned about Kojima having this bizarre, acephobic, rape culture-laden rant in the game:

https://twitter.com/They_Goblin/status/1193262755232571392

That's...that's not a good look. Then again there have been warning signs about this guy for years, but people just wrote it off as "He's just eccentric."

You're going to have to spell that out for me. I skimmed, but the gist seems to be there was a general downsurge in sexual instinct after the 'event'. A pretty standard science-fiction concept. Why is that terrible?

Kwak:

Aiddon:

I was more concerned about Kojima having this bizarre, acephobic, rape culture-laden rant in the game:

https://twitter.com/They_Goblin/status/1193262755232571392

That's...that's not a good look. Then again there have been warning signs about this guy for years, but people just wrote it off as "He's just eccentric."

You're going to have to spell that out for me. I skimmed, but the gist seems to be there was a general downsurge in sexual instinct after the 'event'. A pretty standard science-fiction concept. Why is that terrible?

At best it smacks of Japan's semi-propaganda of getting people to fuck and have kids because the birthrates (in Japan) are so extremely low. And seemingly concluding people who are asexual or not intested in sex as not being able to form connections and thus being part of what's wrong with the world. The text even clearly said this happened before the apocalypse occured. Maybe it's from a character who's point of view were supposed to disagree with, but if not it's just very, very dumb.

Kwak:

Aiddon:

I was more concerned about Kojima having this bizarre, acephobic, rape culture-laden rant in the game:

https://twitter.com/They_Goblin/status/1193262755232571392

That's...that's not a good look. Then again there have been warning signs about this guy for years, but people just wrote it off as "He's just eccentric."

You're going to have to spell that out for me. I skimmed, but the gist seems to be there was a general downsurge in sexual instinct after the 'event'. A pretty standard science-fiction concept. Why is that terrible?

Yeah, Kojima used the current trend of many (espescially) younger people not having sex anymore and the declining birth rate as a precursor to the Death Stranding. Not just the diary entry but Amelie mentions it as well how connections were severed and people lost instinctual drive to reproduce and how people weren't meant to live alone(ie totally disengaged frome one another other than online bickering). Again, it's something proficient in Japan but it plays in Europe and the U.S. as well(or any developed country for that matter). Marriage rates plummeted, birth rates are below replenishment levels, loneliness 'epidemics' leading to sharp increase of mental illness and a general feeling of a society on it's way out. Like with MGS2 Kojima captures the Zeitgeist like very few creatives do, let alone game designers. That he puts this theme in the fabric of a story about how there is hope forming connections even in 'stranding' instead of the dystopian worldview you'd expect gives it a more visionary approach as even 'hope' is very relative in Death Stranding terms. Still, it resists the temptation to go all the way which makes this such a deeply melancholical game. Death Stranding is a meditation on the finity of life itself and the importance of connections before it's gone for good. Which I think is really the point Kojima tried to make with this game.

Silvanus:

Yoshi178:
not by the public it wasn't.

Obviously any marketing the game has is trying to "hype" itself but that's not what I was talking about at all.

Ok. And all those others I listed, which are widely known as a result of their publisher?

like i said, i don't know i haven't paid much attention to the other games you listed which is why i only talked about Daemon X Machina and it's popularity

Silvanus:
...In fact, why is this thing about the public hyping a game relevant at all? My original argument was that we know about most games because of publisher involvement. Whether the public hypes it isn't of much importance to that line of argument.

because you told me "That isn't true at all"

when i had made the comment

usually the only games that get hyped are because of publishers with games that are sequels to already established franchise's.
new IP's just only ever get attention through word of mouth and mainly after the titles released.

but how is my comments not true? generally if it's a new IP, you really only ever hear about it receiving high sales and generating buzz because of the word of mouth when the games come out.

nobody gave a shit about Untitled Goose Game 12 months ago for example, it's really only been since the game has actually come out that people have played it loved it and thus the meme spreading across the internet started.

ask me about other alot indie titles and i would have no clue which game you were talking about unless it gained lots of popularity through word of mouth OR because it was a sequel to an indie that's already popular like say Runner 3.

and it's the same with large publisher based titles, like God of War is widely popular and has had many sequels which is why so many people know about it. you're average Joe Schmoe wouldn't know wtf what Death Stranding was if it wasn't for Kojima's involvement because he's a widely known dev and pretty much Death Strandings entire marketing campaign has revolved around "BUY THIS GAME! KOJIMA'S INVOLVED, oh and some other cool stuff happens BUT KOJIMA'S INVOLVED so BUY OUR GAME GUYS!" not because of any cool game mechanic or even story just "KOJIMA MADE IT SO BUY IT!"

all in all just not really sure why you think my particular statement was so untrue?

Yoshi178:
because you told me "That isn't true at all"

when i had made the comment

usually the only games that get hyped are because of publishers with games that are sequels to already established franchise's.
new IP's just only ever get attention through word of mouth and mainly after the titles released.

but how is my comments not true? generally if it's a new IP, you really only ever hear about it receiving high sales and generating buzz because of the word of mouth when the games come out.

You believe all those games became famous just through word-of-mouth? That publisher involvement didn't give them the publicity they needed to get into the public consciousness?

Is is a coincidence that games from major publishers have such an easier time garnering publicity and sales than indies, then?

Yoshi178:

ask me about other alot indie titles and i would have no clue which game you were talking about unless it gained lots of popularity through word of mouth OR because it was a sequel to an indie that's already popular like say Runner 3.

That's right. Indies. Which by definition lack the involvement of major publishers. That's my point-- those would need to rely on word-of-mouth or much smaller campaigns, and have a harder time garnering publicity as a result.

Yoshi178:
and it's the same with large publisher based titles, like God of War is widely popular and has had many sequels which is why so many people know about it. you're average Joe Schmoe wouldn't know wtf what Death Stranding was if it wasn't for Kojima's involvement because he's a widely known dev and pretty much Death Strandings entire marketing campaign has revolved around "BUY THIS GAME! KOJIMA'S INVOLVED, oh and some other cool stuff happens BUT KOJIMA'S INVOLVED so BUY OUR GAME GUYS!" not because of any cool game mechanic or even story just "KOJIMA MADE IT SO BUY IT!"

all in all just not really sure why you think my particular statement was so untrue?

It's not the same, though, is it? You've just brought up one example-- God of War-- garnering publicity as a sequel... but I brought up six from this year alone which were not sequels, and garnered huge publicity.

And no, I can promise you it wasn't word-of-mouth alone, because they were famous before they ever came out, because of the publishers. They had immense platforms and media exposure before even being released.

Yoshi178:
snip

After Mighty Number 9 and No Man's Sky let downs, you make it sound like if putting Kojima's name on the marketing diminishes the game's merits. Or worse, you're insinuating that all the marketing focused in absolutely nothing but "Kojima new game coming soon", and that's is absolutely untrue.

Just because you have a hype trigger for anything with a Nintendo logo stamped on it and the rest of their marketing is like white-noise to you, don't think everybody else works the same way.

Playing the game some more I wonder how much of PT influenced Death Stranding. Obviously there is the cast(Reedus, Del Toro, Junji Ito as a holographic NPC) but DS has some clear otherwordly elements as well from the ghostly apparitions attached to umbilical cords(BTs almost same abbrevation) to multidimensional realities to Beaches that serve a similar function as Silent Hill(ie a sort of karma debt represented as a physical place).

If Death Stranding is a world in the far future destroyed by BTs their first appearance in the modern day would make a tremendous horror game that has almost the perfect set-up to explore the origin and cause of Silent Hill. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the original vision behind PT. Silent Hills is also plural similarly as Beaches in Death Stranding.

Casual Shinji:

Kwak:

Aiddon:

I was more concerned about Kojima having this bizarre, acephobic, rape culture-laden rant in the game:

https://twitter.com/They_Goblin/status/1193262755232571392

That's...that's not a good look. Then again there have been warning signs about this guy for years, but people just wrote it off as "He's just eccentric."

You're going to have to spell that out for me. I skimmed, but the gist seems to be there was a general downsurge in sexual instinct after the 'event'. A pretty standard science-fiction concept. Why is that terrible?

At best it smacks of Japan's semi-propaganda of getting people to fuck and have kids because the birthrates (in Japan) are so extremely low. And seemingly concluding people who are asexual or not intested in sex as not being able to form connections and thus being part of what's wrong with the world. The text even clearly said this happened before the apocalypse occured. Maybe it's from a character who's point of view were supposed to disagree with, but if not it's just very, very dumb.

It's funny how we live in an age where 11,000 scientists can agree we're heading towards a catastrophic event involving untold human suffering due to climate change; a big part of which is caused by both direct and indirect effects of human population growth (a fact intrinsically tied to Japan's waning interest in forming sexual relationships along with their generally insane work=life culture), yet the driving message the game wants to send is pretty much the exact opposite.

Oh hell, maybe Kojima's just that far ahead of the game and already accounted for everything we're about to go through, and this is just to prepare us for what's after that. Much like MGS2 tried to do with the interwebs.

Aiddon:

Phoenixmgs:

but I'm very very much doubting anyone is a going to walk away after playing the game thinking the queers caused the "death stranding".

Hate to break it to ya, but that IS what the game is saying. It's basically equating queerness (including asexuality, which is queer because it does not conform to heterosexual orientation norms) to social distance and isolation. This is why there's nothing in the game that refutes that document; it's because the game finds it to be equally valid or validates it entirely. Not a good luck, so you can stop digging that hole for yourself

That entry does not say what you are claiming it does.

stroopwafel:

Yeah, Kojima used the current trend of many (espescially) younger people not having sex anymore and the declining birth rate as a precursor to the Death Stranding. Not just the diary entry but Amelie mentions it as well how connections were severed and people lost instinctual drive to reproduce and how people weren't meant to live alone(ie totally disengaged frome one another other than online bickering). Again, it's something proficient in Japan but it plays in Europe and the U.S. as well(or any developed country for that matter). Marriage rates plummeted, birth rates are below replenishment levels, loneliness 'epidemics' leading to sharp increase of mental illness and a general feeling of a society on it's way out. Like with MGS2 Kojima captures the Zeitgeist like very few creatives do, let alone game designers. That he puts this theme in the fabric of a story about how there is hope forming connections even in 'stranding' instead of the dystopian worldview you'd expect gives it a more visionary approach as even 'hope' is very relative in Death Stranding terms. Still, it resists the temptation to go all the way which makes this such a deeply melancholical game. Death Stranding is a meditation on the finity of life itself and the importance of connections before it's gone for good. Which I think is really the point Kojima tried to make with this game.

Except this is the problem: Kojima is wrong. Or at least he's looking at the problem the wrong way and relying on obsolete information. Marriage rates plummeting has more to do with people realizing they don't need to be forced into it in order to validate their lives i.e. the "collapse of the nuclear family." The birth rate plummeting has more to do with hostility to immigration than people mucking around on the internet. And mental illness is not an epidemic, we've just gotten better in diagnosing it. So Kojima...has not read the room at ALL

Finished it today.

Bottom line is, it's a very, very good game in most ways, definitely my personal game of the year, but even more notably, it's a very good display of both Hideo Kojima's strengths and limitations as a writer and as a game designer.

I'm about to shower this game with praise in the next paragraph but I would like to use this one to address my issues with it. Like many people I was pretty unhappy with Metal Gear Solid V, unlike MGS V, Death Stranding is certainly a fully realized game and a fully realized narrative. They do, however, share a few problems. The most major of which is that almost all character interactions, excepting a few bossfights, happen in cutscenes and most characters might as well not exist outside of them. There's two missions where you're carrying an actual, alive person from one place to another and those are memorable exactly because they are the only time you ever interact with someone outside of cutscenes. Of course unlike in MGS V, loneliness is built into the DNA of Death Stranding so it never sticks out the way there not actually being any war happening in Phantom Pain's warzones did but it still sometimes creates a disconnect between cinematics and gameplay. Kojima has always had a tendency towards redundant dialogue, there were moments when you had two text documents, three E-Mails and another two cutscenes more or less getting the same point across. This shouldn't have gotten through the editor, is what I'm saying. And last, and this might be a philosophical question, part of me can't help but wonder if Death Stranding wouldn't have been better if it hadn't been quite so bent on avoiding action game tropes. I can't, in good consciousness, call this a failure of the game because it's obviously very intentional, to the point it had a character almost literally turning to the camera and mocking the player for expecting more action. And I get it. I really do. Rope, not stick. It's actually quite admirable how the game takes the framework of a third person open world action game and then explores the question of how you can remove most of the violence from it and still have a game left. And it succeeds. Death Stranding is a mechanically enjoyable game. Maybe it's ignorance on my part, but I feel like mechanically speaking, this game sure wouldn't have been any worse, had it had a firefight once in a while. Thematically, sure, I get why it hardly has any but... you know, whenever it did have an action setpiece I couldn't help but feel that I wouldn't mind if more of the game was like those.

So much for the criticism, here's the praise:
Death Stranding is, in many ways, a brilliant game and stands as a considerable mechanical and artistic accomplishment. Mechanically it is impressively succesful in not only coming up with a core gameplay that doesn't involve any combat but also tying it to the games overall themes. Death Stranding is about building connections, emotional connections, sure, but also literally connecting places on the map. You hike to various places, cities, distribution centers, settlements, cross rivers and canyons, climb mountains and pass by, or through, bandit and terrorist camps and haunted grounds. And then you make it easier for yourself. You build bridges, place ladders, you can literally build a highway and, later on, a network of futuristic zip lines. And before you'll know it you can reach an isolated shelter you've taken a good 15 minutes to reach when you first connected it to the network in a few seconds. Footpaths start to take shape on well travelled paths. You start of in a hostile environment and you're helping civilization reclaim it. This might be the big, central idea of the game. The world might be in the middle of a calamity but humanity will find a way and carve out a path for itself. And talking about themes and narrative, Death Stranding delivers. In spades. DS has Kojima firing from all cylinders. Social commentary, political commentary, philosophy, environmentalism, mythology, science-fiction, Kojima weaves all of these together into a sprawling narrative that couldn't be more relevant or more resonant. Kojima is not a subtle writer by any stretch, nor is he the prophet people who still look up to him for figuring out where the internet was going back in the early 00s sometimes make him out to be, but Jesus Christ does he manage to tap into contemporary cultural anxieties. Death Stranding gets alienation, Death Stranding gets the double edged nature of the digital age, Death Stranding gets the dangers of reckless individualism. Behind all the Twin Peaksian mysticism there's a man who has taken a good look at the current state of the world and is deeply, profoundly worried. Death Stranding presents a very abstract vision of post apocalyptic America with its otherworldly, Scandinavian inspired landscapes but the wasteland it shows us is one we're all living in. Death Stranding isn't so much holding a mirror to our society as chasing it through a hall of mirrors, reflecting it back and sometimes distorting it from all angles.

stroopwafel:
Playing the game some more I wonder how much of PT influenced Death Stranding. Obviously there is the cast(Reedus, Del Toro, Junji Ito as a holographic NPC) but DS has some clear otherwordly elements as well from the ghostly apparitions attached to umbilical cords(BTs almost same abbrevation) to multidimensional realities to Beaches that serve a similar function as Silent Hill(ie a sort of karma debt represented as a physical place).

If Death Stranding is a world in the far future destroyed by BTs their first appearance in the modern day would make a tremendous horror game that has almost the perfect set-up to explore the origin and cause of Silent Hill. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the original vision behind PT. Silent Hills is also plural similarly as Beaches in Death Stranding.

There was one section in particular relatively late in the game, as it was slowly but surely getting close to its climax, that made me immediately think of Silent Hill. I'm not gonna spoil it in case you haven't gotten there yet but something about it felt like it could, with some minor changes, very easily have been a setpiece in a Silent Hill game. Anyway, the game in general felt very much like Silent Hill, but instead of confronting an individual with their sins it confronts an entire culture with its sins. From remnants of small American towns popping up through primordial tar, to ghostly apparitions longing for a connection to the world of the living to an old soldier being trapped in nightmarish repetitions of long lost battles... man, it's so good!

Even if I'm really not into Kojima I'm glad there's elbow room for an artist's game in the AAA industry.

Aiddon:

stroopwafel:

Yeah, Kojima used the current trend of many (espescially) younger people not having sex anymore and the declining birth rate as a precursor to the Death Stranding. Not just the diary entry but Amelie mentions it as well how connections were severed and people lost instinctual drive to reproduce and how people weren't meant to live alone(ie totally disengaged frome one another other than online bickering). Again, it's something proficient in Japan but it plays in Europe and the U.S. as well(or any developed country for that matter). Marriage rates plummeted, birth rates are below replenishment levels, loneliness 'epidemics' leading to sharp increase of mental illness and a general feeling of a society on it's way out. Like with MGS2 Kojima captures the Zeitgeist like very few creatives do, let alone game designers. That he puts this theme in the fabric of a story about how there is hope forming connections even in 'stranding' instead of the dystopian worldview you'd expect gives it a more visionary approach as even 'hope' is very relative in Death Stranding terms. Still, it resists the temptation to go all the way which makes this such a deeply melancholical game. Death Stranding is a meditation on the finity of life itself and the importance of connections before it's gone for good. Which I think is really the point Kojima tried to make with this game.

Except this is the problem: Kojima is wrong. Or at least he's looking at the problem the wrong way and relying on obsolete information. Marriage rates plummeting has more to do with people realizing they don't need to be forced into it in order to validate their lives i.e. the "collapse of the nuclear family." The birth rate plummeting has more to do with hostility to immigration than people mucking around on the internet. And mental illness is not an epidemic, we've just gotten better in diagnosing it. So Kojima...has not read the room at ALL

That's a bit like sticking your head in the sand. Loss of social structures and pair bonding has made people extremely individualistic and insular which led to isolation and separation of large groups of people which in it's turn led to loneliness epidemics and mental health crisis. You're really underestimating the problem. Just b/c there are people who are happy with fringe lifestyles and sexualities doesn't mean Kojima misses the bigger picture of a culture in decline. That half the people in the U.S. are euthanizing themselves with opioids has nothing to do with 'better diagnosing' but everything with a complete loss of hope. People are social animals most people who end up 'stranded' become depressed, anxious and isolated which is also exactly what large parts of the civilized world has become.

Kojima observes this with a sharp and keen eye but at the same time also acknowledges that people want it this way which makes his philosophy particularly honest and insightful of the modern times. It's a keenly aware observation within an already esoteric meta-narrative.

Aiddon:
Except this is the problem: Kojima is wrong. Or at least he's looking at the problem the wrong way and relying on obsolete information. Marriage rates plummeting has more to do with people realizing they don't need to be forced into it in order to validate their lives i.e. the "collapse of the nuclear family." The birth rate plummeting has more to do with hostility to immigration than people mucking around on the internet. And mental illness is not an epidemic, we've just gotten better in diagnosing it. So Kojima...has not read the room at ALL

1) Kojima was right last time (MGS2) and that sounded rather fantastical at the time as well. I'm guessing climate change kills us faster than we would kill ourselves (due to not reproducing).

2) According to very very recent information posted in our very own off-topic board, mental illness seems to be a HUGE issue very soon on the road ahead.

3) IMO, Society is at a rather poor place right now due to Kojima's prediction concerning the Internet and digital age (MGS2) where everyone basically strictly uses confirmation bias to confirm their own beliefs so you have rather large groups believing completely wrong things like flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers along with the current political climate, especially in America.

stroopwafel:

That's a bit like sticking your head in the sand. Loss of social structures and pair bonding has made people extremely individualistic and insular which led to isolation and separation of large groups of people which in it's turn led to loneliness epidemics and mental health crisis. You're really underestimating the problem. Just b/c there are people who are happy with fringe lifestyles and sexualities doesn't mean Kojima misses the bigger picture of a culture in decline. That half the people in the U.S. are euthanizing themselves with opioids has nothing to do with 'better diagnosing' but everything with a complete loss of hope. People are social animals most people who end up 'stranded' become depressed, anxious and isolated which is also exactly what large parts of the civilized world has become.

Kojima observes this with a sharp and keen eye but at the same time also acknowledges that people want it this way which makes his philosophy particularly honest and insightful of the modern times. It's a keenly aware observation within an already esoteric meta-narrative.

All that Kojima is doing is regurgitating themes Hideaki Anno did twenty years ago with Evangelion. That's seriously all the game is; it's Evangelion except with a grizzled, middle-aged man instead of a middle-school boy and no giant robots (so what's the goddamned point?). Except, unlike Evangelion, this game doesn't have the excuse of being made in the 90s with the Lost Decade of Japan (and even Evangelion brought up the idea that the older generation was filled with bloodsucking vampires who exploited the youth). The "loss of pair bonding and social structures" isn't because of internal issues with people, but external Political (as in actual bureaucratic factors. Marginalized people in particular aren't isolated because of wasting time on Twitter, they're isolated because of social prejudice. That's why Death Stranding's metaphors and themes don't work or at least are EXTREMELY limited. Ya wanna see ACTUAL relevant commentary, look at Persona 5 or Yakuza.

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