When you feel like your perception of difficulty is askew

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I've been playing Sekiro for a bit and I'm digging it a lot. It's a Souls game that generally hits all the things I like about Souls games but also changing shit up a bit to make it feel new(the posture system, no stamina, the shinobi tools, etc).

What I find interesting is that apparently(no hard data, just a perception from peaking around the net) something like half of the people who are into Souls games consider it the hardest of the bunch which wasn't really my impression at all. It's tough at shit at times but in some ways it feels easier due to having a functioning stealth system and the ability to kite mobs on the way to the bosses far more easily. Hell, a number of mini-boss battles allow you to escape from the arena and disengage entirely, which isn't a bad move if you flubbed the opening, running low on gourd uses and already used your resurrect(though the downside is half these guys bring their boys with them to the fight, which means you have to clear them out first or it's ganktown).

What really got me is running into the brick walls that most of these bosses represent. Some of them I was able to overcome fairly quickly while others feel incredibly difficult, except my feelings don't seem to match what I'm from a lot of other people. I'm at Genichiro(at the top of Ashina Castle) on the main branch but I've been continually challenging and failing vs. Lady butterfly for a while now(which normally prompts me to go fight or explore somewhere else). So now I've pretty much finished Senpou temple and cleared the way to Genichiro but still having trouble with Lady Butterfly, only to find out apparently she's considered easy. At least I don't feel so bad that I'm having trouble with Seven Spears(the guy on the cliff with the giant spear) near where the game starts.

I've seen this before in FROM games and I sometimes think maybe I'm just a fucking wierdo. In Dark Souls 2 I swear I'm the only person who ever had problems with Prowling Magus and congregation but managed to take down the Smelter Demon in a handful of tries, or had far more problems with the Old Iron King(well, more his fucking lava arena then him) then the Lost Sinner(who I took down in one attempt). In Bloodborne I took down Vicar Amelia the first try but found ROM a pain in the ass(ROM is apparently the easy one).

I don't really know if I even have a question here. I think I'm just venting a little over how it feels like I'm playing a different game then everyone else is at times. Anyone else have examples of this they'd like to share(not just FROM games, obviously)?

Everyone always plays up how tough the Big Daddies were in Bioshock but I always found the Splicers to be harder enemies. (Because I'm bad at videogames and Splicers are smaller targets) Electric attacks in particular more or less trivialised fights with them.

if you think a game is hard then git gud or keep failing until you do.

Get totally what you mean, and it does seem to come mostly from the soulsbourne percepticles. Did actually try sekiro for a bit round someone's house last year and was surprised how much it would let me button mash compared to DS, as well as the parrying not being a total arse to pull off. Was considering how long pretending it was entirely skill would last to the person who already completed it. Probably not long at all.
Ron was major tricky first time, but other bosses I'd do first time without issue until doing them again much later in life and finding them a far bigger wall as if playstyle had sneakily changed behind the scenes or some other tainted spirit had overtaken this body to fail instead. There was also that magic gauntlet dash area in DS2 that everyone hated but wasn't an issue for me as long as eye's are kept sharp, while that 3 wizards boss just denied any further progress until brandished the honourable superpower of summoning me funkily-dressed (anonymous) battle mates to the hard work instead. It caused similar musings until realising even my own experience is inconsistent too. Can't trust anything to remain static and dependable. Especially perceptions of difficulty and one's own body cells.

Trying to think of a non-SB game who presents a similar gulf in perception, but nothing as of yet. Wonder what that means. Presumably that I ain't played enough of them there videogames!

It comes down to individual skill, obviously, but also the way you play.

My personal story with Sekiro and Lady Butterfly is this;

When I first encountered her I thought she was very difficult and I tried maybe 20 times to defeat her before I gave up and went to other places. Heck, because Hirata estate is somewhat of an optional side area, I thought that maybe this was just a late game area that you're expected to come back to later.

During my first "skirmish" with Lady Butterfly I was trying to perfectly deflect individual attacks with single presses of the L1 button, thinking that parry windows were small and precise like in Dark Souls.

A couple of hours later when I came back to Lady Butterfly, my play style had changed; Instead of trying to aim for individual attacks' parry windows, I'd just be constantly pressing, or holding, L1 during her attacks, occasionally an attack of hers would get through, but overall, I was parrying more of her attacks than before.

Also, I got more aggressive in playing. I would just keep hitting R1 until she'd parry an attack, then I'd switch over to hitting L1 until I parried one of her attacks ( you know the satisfying sound ), then I'd switch back to R1 and repeat the cycle. I ended up defeating her on my "first" try and I now classify her as easy.

I'm almost at the final boss of the game, so I'm somewhat looking forward to fighting her again in New Game +, will she still be easy to me?

As far as sekiro being the hardest of the soul game, I'd disagree... until the final boss which is I thought was the hardest of all final boss. It really depend on how you play, I personally always hated anything that comes down purely to timing, I've played pretty much every other soulborne without ever touching the parry functionality and avoiding using the i-frame in the dodge. So the boss I consider the hardest often are very different than other player, father G in bloodborne is pretty much made to make sure the player is good at parry, so to me he was the hardest boss in the game (even over the DLC one).

Lady butterfly also was pretty hard for me, but that's mostly because I tried to fight her as soon as I could, I came back later, with more health and str, and she was much easier (obviously).

Lady Butterfly is hard only because you can reach her fight very very early in the game where you're low on heals and life and skills. She's very easy once you realize that you can shuriken her out of the sky and you can parry anything she does and then just break her posture without even worrying about her life. You really shouldn't even be touched during her first lifebar if you know how to play. Ashina has a lot of stages but if you practiced fighting the samurai in the castle a bunch he's not hard either and the third stage is just the air parry gimmick which you read about in that wallscroll and should try applying asap. The only fight that you legitimately wanna dodge until later is those headless oni that cause fear because you lack the medicine that cures it and the prosthetics that shield you from it.

Sekiro overall is not hard, and only if you skip by IKing all the mobs and don't practice fighting them properly will you find bosses as being a brick wall of difficulty. For example, I did the dual ape fight on my first try going blind, and was baffled people thought it was hard, but then I realized people weren't even using the right prosthetics (firecrackers to scare it, then flamethrower to cut its stamina recovery, and shield to defend against the fear scream of the other one) so I think a lot of the "perceived" difficulty is due to people not adapting and not trying all their available tactics until they stumble on the right one but just mindlessly bashing their head into the wall until they win by sheer chance.

Ultimately, Sekiro's parry system is very generous, cause you can both cancel an attack into the parry and the parry is instantly active as soon as you press the button and it is instantly going from the parry window into a guard window with no gap at all. That means that you wanna time your parry early so that if you time it too early you still just normal block stuff. As long as you comprehend that part you shouldn't have trouble with like 90% of the game.

Dalisclock:
I've been playing Sekiro for a bit and I'm digging it a lot. It's a Souls game that generally hits all the things I like about Souls games but also changing shit up a bit to make it feel new(the posture system, no stamina, the shinobi tools, etc).

What I find interesting is that apparently(no hard data, just a perception from peaking around the net) something like half of the people who are into Souls games consider it the hardest of the bunch which wasn't really my impression at all. It's tough at shit at times but in some ways it feels easier due to having a functioning stealth system and the ability to kite mobs on the way to the bosses far more easily. Hell, a number of mini-boss battles allow you to escape from the arena and disengage entirely, which isn't a bad move if you flubbed the opening, running low on gourd uses and already used your resurrect(though the downside is half these guys bring their boys with them to the fight, which means you have to clear them out first or it's ganktown).

What really got me is running into the brick walls that most of these bosses represent. Some of them I was able to overcome fairly quickly while others feel incredibly difficult, except my feelings don't seem to match what I'm from a lot of other people. I'm at Genichiro(at the top of Ashina Castle) on the main branch but I've been continually challenging and failing vs. Lady butterfly for a while now(which normally prompts me to go fight or explore somewhere else). So now I've pretty much finished Senpou temple and cleared the way to Genichiro but still having trouble with Lady Butterfly, only to find out apparently she's considered easy. At least I don't feel so bad that I'm having trouble with Seven Spears(the guy on the cliff with the giant spear) near where the game starts.

I've seen this before in FROM games and I sometimes think maybe I'm just a fucking wierdo. In Dark Souls 2 I swear I'm the only person who ever had problems with Prowling Magus and congregation but managed to take down the Smelter Demon in a handful of tries, or had far more problems with the Old Iron King(well, more his fucking lava arena then him) then the Lost Sinner(who I took down in one attempt). In Bloodborne I took down Vicar Amelia the first try but found ROM a pain in the ass(ROM is apparently the easy one).

I don't really know if I even have a question here. I think I'm just venting a little over how it feels like I'm playing a different game then everyone else is at times. Anyone else have examples of this they'd like to share(not just FROM games, obviously)?

That's what makes these games so interesting is the fact there are very few identical perceptions or experiences among players. I really didn't grasp Sekiro's combat until after I beat Lady Butterfly. I merely scraped by the Drunkard right before her, and that was only when sneaking behind for the first stealth kill.

LB took dozens of tries, but by the time I beat her I only healed once; the second phase only taking some damage from that exploding butterfly attack right. Applying as much pressure as possible worked best for me. Wait by the wall behind her when she drops down in the second phase for some free hits.

With enough pressure she shouldn't even get a chance to summon spirits, so don't waste time/resources getting seeds. Jump over the Perilous ground attack and counter kick, and throw a star or two to stun when she goes airborne, hit her a couple of times then dodge and repeat. IIRC there's a Perilous airborne attack, but it can also be interrupted with a star if caught early.

I found Amelia and ROM to be just as you described though. The chalice Ebriettas would be my bane in Bloodborne. Runner up would probably be the hellfire cleric beast in NG+ (or was it in Old Hunters, which I did in NG+ like a masochist), ironically in Amelia's arena.

Yoshi178:
if you think a game is hard then git gud or keep failing until you do.

That would be a very signature-worthy statement, if we still had signatures here.

Dreiko:
Lady Butterfly

.

I should be fairly ok then because she was the second boss for me after the horse rider. I had 11 VIT and 2 ATK. Ran out of seeds too, so that kinda sucked until I learned to just pressure the hell out of her and interrupt her air attacks.

Vaati Vidya had some tips on parrying that helped too. Basically L1 can be sort of butterfly-tapped or fluttered during unpredictable attacks and you can still parry fairly well, although the posture damage bonus is lessened.

hanselthecaretaker:

Dreiko:
Lady Butterfly

.

I should be fairly ok then because she was the second boss for me after the horse rider. I had 11 VIT and 2 ATK. Ran out of seeds too, so that kinda sucked until I learned to just pressure the hell out of her and interrupt her air attacks.

Vaati Vidya had some tips on parrying that helped too. Basically L1 can be sort of butterfly-tapped or fluttered during unpredictable attacks and you can still parry fairly well, although the posture damage bonus is lessened.

Yeah you're good, I made the error (or chest-hair-growing) decision to fight her before the horse guy which made him look like a chump and also made me learn how to play sekiro really fast. I fought her literally during the very first time you reach the estate, I never even went out of that place cause I was super into it and wanted to see what else was waiting for me lol.

And yeah you can doubletap (we call that plinking in fighting games) but the bigger thing is canceling your attack into a guard because you bait them to parry and give you an opening. It's very useful vs the sorts of enemies that parry you and do not just super armor through your hits.

I've beaten three of these games so far(though not every boss because some of them can clearly fuck off) so I guess I've been doing SOMETHING right though I don't consider myself terribly good and I'm not that lucky to just bumble through it. Like some of you guys, I never managed to get good at parrying in the other games, though got somewhat decent at timing my shots in BB for a Visceral because I had to.

Strangely I went back and took another stab at granny(Phrasing? Is that Phrasing? Are we still doing Phrasing?). I guess I just hadn't been pressing the attack enough or something because this time I got her in one try. Appreciate the help. Maybe stepping back was the right thing to do. I knew about spamming L1(The Parry Dance) and apparently just needed to get the timing down.

Maybe I was just too embarrassed by getting repeatedly owned by a 90 year old grandma to fight the right way. Or maybe it was her fucking ghosts and butterflies that did it. Anyway, time to move on to Genichiro, who apparently is an exam boss. I tried him once and he was a bit of a challenge. The "Shoot an arrow" when you try to heal was a nice trick for sure.

Yoshi178:
if you think a game is hard then git gud or keep failing until you do.

There's a message on the ground. It says "Try Jumping".

hanselthecaretaker:

I found Amelia and ROM to be just as you described though. The chalice Ebriettas would be my bane in Bloodborne. Runner up would probably be the hellfire cleric beast in NG+ (or was it in Old Hunters, which I did in NG+ like a masochist), ironically in Amelia?s arena.

Yeah, I fucking hated Laurence in the Old Hunter Cathedral/Amelia's room. He felt like just a giant firey damage sponge with no real way to do any decent damage(since fire doesn't work on a fire beast). Ludwig was much more interesting. Hell, Maria, despite being hard as fuck, was quite fun even when she was murdering me all the time.

Yeah, I've experienced that more than a few times. Queelag absolutely stomped my ass in DS1, though I rarely if ever hear anyone mention her over say, Fume Knight or Ornstein & Smough (both of whom were fucking brutal fights, admittedly).

The bosses/mini-bosses in Sekiro force you to play properly (assuming you're not using prosthetic tools) so, yeah, you won't beat Lady Butterfly until you get the parrying / posture systems down. The normal enemies don't fight you in a manner to actually "git gud" so fighting them tons doesn't help you much. And the Spear guy is to make you get good at the Mikiri Counter. And like every boss/mini-boss, you have to get down all of their attack animations.

hanselthecaretaker:

Yoshi178:
if you think a game is hard then git gud or keep failing until you do.

That would be a very signature-worthy statement, if we still had signatures here.

We used to have mottos at the profile pages tho.

OT: Even after getting the Platinum Trophy in Bloodborne, I still can't win against the Abhorrent Beast in a fair fight.

Playing through Dark Souls 2 and 3 has taught me that I am absolutely terrible at Souls games... Which makes it all the more mystifying when I was actually able to bring down Champion Gundyr, one of the bosses whose reputation preceded him, on the very first try. Conversely, everyone said the Deacons of the Deep were easy, yet killing the leader in time to stop the unavoidable area curse, even with a ring to resist it, demands risky charges into the bulk of the infinite swarm that got me gang-raped/gang fireblasted several times even with a wide-sweeping weapon. My all-time nightmare is the Pursuer though. It's always difficult when a boss attacks so quickly and relentlessly that you can't heal, and unlike Pontiff Sulyvahn or Gundyr there's no room to escape.

Not just limited to Souls games either- I'm much more proficient at the SMT series yet some of its most legendary bosses like Trumpeter or Mot will occasionally mess up around me.

Dark Souls was never my jam. I get the appeal, but none of it works for me.

Devil May Cry 1 - A game that can be difficult for newcomers, but for seasoned veterans, the game is practically a cakewalk unless you're playing certain section on Dante Must Die. Nelo Angelo was known for being a game stopper. He's difficult the first time though. And then you learn on NG+ that Irit's charge combos can parry and stun Nelo Angelo. Or that you can slash cancel Alstar's 1-2-3 slash combo leaving him in a stun loop. Ya still gotta respect such as awesome boss.

I never found Carnival Night Zone difficult. I did not even know about the infamous "barrel" section until about 2003. I have never once gotten stuck on CNZ.

Ninja Gaiden II (360) is not a difficult game. It's a game made of tedium, frustration, and a unfinished title rushed for release. I've beaten once and almost have no fore thought to play it on the higher difficulties.

Streets of Rage 3 was ball busting hard for no reason, while the Japanese version was too easy, even on Very Hard mode. The Japanese version I still prefer. The same applies to Contra Hard Corps. Once you know about how CHC JP let's you take three hits before dying, it's almost impossible to go back to the US version. Not with out the 30 lives code anyway.

I beat Sekiro recently as well. Was a lot of fun, but I felt that overall the game wasn't too difficult. Most bosses only took 2-4 attempts, though Lady Butterfly being my first boss took a good 20 to beat. Even kept the Bell Demon debuff on for most of the game until the final boss; being posture broken after every combo was overkill.

Maybe it was because I'm used to games like this, some of my favorites being Metal Gear Rising and Furi, and I picked up the game's mechanics fairly quickly. The game was super fun, but difficulty really was all over the place.

MGR has a weird thing where if you're trying to do No-hit runs for high rankings, its second-highest difficulty is actually harder than it's hardest difficulty, which gives you massive damage boost to perfect parries at the cost of smaller parry windows and harder hitting enemies.
These two difficulties have the exact same enemy placements and boss changes, but only on the hardest difficulty can you do so much damage with a parry that you can skip entire boss phases. It's just strange.

WhiteFangofWhoa:
My all-time nightmare is the Pursuer though. It's always difficult when a boss attacks so quickly and relentlessly that you can't heal, and unlike Pontiff Sulyvahn or Gundyr there's no room to escape.

Don't forget he can miss you and somehow teleport you onto his sword for an impale because bosses have the advantage of janky hitboxes but you don't because fuck you.

At least he's optional unless you want to use that backdoor to the Lost Bastille. I actually killed that bastard a couple times in the other places he appears out of nowhere along the way. I was disappointed to find out you don't really get anything out of it though.

Phoenixmgs:
The bosses/mini-bosses in Sekiro force you to play properly (assuming you're not using prosthetic tools) so, yeah, you won't beat Lady Butterfly until you get the parrying / posture systems down. The normal enemies don't fight you in a manner to actually "git gud" so fighting them tons doesn't help you much. And the Spear guy is to make you get good at the Mikiri Counter. And like every boss/mini-boss, you have to get down all of their attack animations.

Yeah, I haven't had much trouble with the normal mooks for the most part, even when I am fighting them.

I like the undead guy at the temple who will help train you but I kinda wish you could get him to ratchet up his game a bit as time goes on, or even better, if there were a way to get him to emulate a certain boss you'd already beaten to get some more practice. Then again, I guess he's really there to just help you ease into the fighting mechanics since it feels like you get a LOT more leeway from fighting him then any of the real enemies.

I remember Nameless King being called a hard boss. I finished it in my second go.

The Dancer though.... I have never beaten her solo. Without summons, I would have been stuck there

WhiteFangofWhoa:
Playing through Dark Souls 2 and 3 has taught me that I am absolutely terrible at Souls games... Which makes it all the more mystifying when I was actually able to bring down Champion Gundyr, one of the bosses whose reputation preceded him, on the very first try. Conversely, everyone said the Deacons of the Deep were easy, yet killing the leader in time to stop the unavoidable area curse, even with a ring to resist it, demands risky charges into the bulk of the infinite swarm that got me gang-raped/gang fireblasted several times even with a wide-sweeping weapon. My all-time nightmare is the Pursuer though. It's always difficult when a boss attacks so quickly and relentlessly that you can't heal, and unlike Pontiff Sulyvahn or Gundyr there's no room to escape.

The trick with Gundyr and Sulyvahn is learn their patterns and parry the hell out of them. Dodge until they let swing with an attack you know the timing for, then nail them with the counter and a few good hits after. That, and use a summon on Sulyvahn at least (the NPC one at Champion Gundyr isn't much use, being a naked guy with a katana), always helps to have something to split focus.

Deacons is just a matter of abusing iframes to slap around the active one and roll out before anyone can retaliate. The candle guys in particular are terrible. Curse fog and homing Deep Soul spam will absolutely fuck you up if you follow your instincts and play cautiously. Get out your Hollowslayer Greatsword and just wade in swinging and things tend to work out.

Pursuer (and the entirety of Lost Bastille) can just get fucked, though. I'll take Smelter Demon over that entire shitshow any day. And as for other DS2 bosses...The Duke's Dear Freyja. Eeeeugh. I'm not particularly arachnophobic, and spiders/insects in games basically never bother me, but the sheer amount of big fucking spiders in that whole area just makes my skin crawl. And of course there's no bonfire near the fog door, so you have to go down the creepy-ass web pit every time you die.

trunkage:
I remember Nameless King being called a hard boss. I finished it in my second go.

The Dancer though.... I have never beaten her solo. Without summons, I would have been stuck there

The Dancer is one of those bosses that I personally never had trouble with, I always managed to defeat him on my "first" try in New Game (+) cycles.

Nameless King, however... at times I'll be able to expertly dodge through his combos and wreck him, other times I find myself getting pummeled by anything and everything he throws at me.

Dalisclock:
I've beaten three of these games so far(though not every boss because some of them can clearly fuck off) so I guess I've been doing SOMETHING right though I don't consider myself terribly good and I'm not that lucky to just bumble through it. Like some of you guys, I never managed to get good at parrying in the other games, though got somewhat decent at timing my shots in BB for a Visceral because I had to.

Strangely I went back and took another stab at granny(Phrasing? Is that Phrasing? Are we still doing Phrasing?). I guess I just hadn't been pressing the attack enough or something because this time I got her in one try. Appreciate the help. Maybe stepping back was the right thing to do. I knew about spamming L1(The Parry Dance) and apparently just needed to get the timing down.

Maybe I was just too embarrassed by getting repeatedly owned by a 90 year old grandma to fight the right way. Or maybe it was her fucking ghosts and butterflies that did it. Anyway, time to move on to Genichiro, who apparently is an exam boss. I tried him once and he was a bit of a challenge. The "Shoot an arrow" when you try to heal was a nice trick for sure.

Yoshi178:
if you think a game is hard then git gud or keep failing until you do.

There's a message on the ground. It says "Try Jumping".

hanselthecaretaker:

I found Amelia and ROM to be just as you described though. The chalice Ebriettas would be my bane in Bloodborne. Runner up would probably be the hellfire cleric beast in NG+ (or was it in Old Hunters, which I did in NG+ like a masochist), ironically in Amelia?s arena.

Yeah, I fucking hated Laurence in the Old Hunter Cathedral/Amelia's room. He felt like just a giant firey damage sponge with no real way to do any decent damage(since fire doesn't work on a fire beast). Ludwig was much more interesting. Hell, Maria, despite being hard as fuck, was quite fun even when she was murdering me all the time.

This thread prompted me to boot up Sekiro again, and I realized after some exploring that I overlooked Genichiro. I tried him a few times and got the first deathblow once, so think I know what to do now. The arrows can be avoided thankfully if you're far enough away and time the dodge.

The Elite dude before him was surprisingly irksome because he's quick and literally can one-shot you, not to mention kill your posture if you try to slop it too much. I spent easily a dozen or so tries but eventually the one that mattered only took like 20 seconds. I think when you get that rhythm in Sekiro the victories are more satisfying than in SoulsBorne, because it literally feels like you're outplaying the opponent vs just depleting their health bar.

The Yamauchi Seven Spears fight seems to also top a lot of lists as far as mini bosses go, but considering you can easily stealth one bar and use the environment to your advantage the rest of it he wasn't too bad. The worst part was dealing with the cronies first or avoiding them.

hanselthecaretaker:

The Elite dude before him was surprisingly irksome because he?s quick and literally can one-shot you, not to mention kill your posture if you try to slop it too much. I spent easily a dozen or so tries but eventually the one that mattered only took like 20 seconds. I think when you get that rhythm in Sekiro the victories are more satisfying than in SoulsBorne, because it literally feels like you?re outplaying the opponent vs just depleting their health bar.

The Yamauchi Seven Spears fight seems to also top a lot of lists as far as mini bosses go, but considering you can easily stealth one bar and use the environment to your advantage the rest of it he wasn?t too bad. The worst part was dealing with the cronies first or avoiding them.

I think it took me like 4 or 5 tries to take down the elite guy in the dojo guarding access to Genichiro. It was getting used to his attacks. It helps a bit if you notice his sword will glint just before he begins attacking(since he's doing that style where he pulls it straight from the scabbard into a strike).

I almost always that first stealth deathblow on seven spears. It's knocking him down on the 2nd that hurts so much because that spear has a LONG reach and he's really good at smacking you with it. And then there's that overhead twirl thing which just sucks. I'm gonna hold off on him till later but his day is coming. It's not even about the prayer bead anymore. He deserves to die for all the trouble he's caused.

Dalisclock:

hanselthecaretaker:

The Elite dude before him was surprisingly irksome because he?s quick and literally can one-shot you, not to mention kill your posture if you try to slop it too much. I spent easily a dozen or so tries but eventually the one that mattered only took like 20 seconds. I think when you get that rhythm in Sekiro the victories are more satisfying than in SoulsBorne, because it literally feels like you?re outplaying the opponent vs just depleting their health bar.

The Yamauchi Seven Spears fight seems to also top a lot of lists as far as mini bosses go, but considering you can easily stealth one bar and use the environment to your advantage the rest of it he wasn?t too bad. The worst part was dealing with the cronies first or avoiding them.

I think it took me like 4 or 5 tries to take down the elite guy in the dojo guarding access to Genichiro. It was getting used to his attacks. It helps a bit if you notice his sword will glint just before he begins attacking(since he's doing that style where he pulls it straight from the scabbard into a strike).

I almost always that first stealth deathblow on seven spears. It's knocking him down on the 2nd that hurts so much because that spear has a LONG reach and he's really good at smacking you with it. And then there's that overhead twirl thing which just sucks. I'm gonna hold off on him till later but his day is coming. It's not even about the prayer bead anymore. He deserves to die for all the trouble he's caused.

I've read the Elite was is optional because you can break down the wall to get to Genichiro. Oh well he was worth the bead at least.

Ol' Gen though has been causing me more problems than Lady Butterfly I think. At least with her there were more vulnerable states like anti air. Him? It seems to be just a straight up duel to the death and he has the advantage of quick arrows to play keep away when you're trying to regain some posture. I should be able to beat him now going back in fresh, but he's been the most attritional fight yet with the level of patience he seems to require.

hanselthecaretaker:

Dalisclock:

hanselthecaretaker:

The Elite dude before him was surprisingly irksome because he?s quick and literally can one-shot you, not to mention kill your posture if you try to slop it too much. I spent easily a dozen or so tries but eventually the one that mattered only took like 20 seconds. I think when you get that rhythm in Sekiro the victories are more satisfying than in SoulsBorne, because it literally feels like you?re outplaying the opponent vs just depleting their health bar.

The Yamauchi Seven Spears fight seems to also top a lot of lists as far as mini bosses go, but considering you can easily stealth one bar and use the environment to your advantage the rest of it he wasn?t too bad. The worst part was dealing with the cronies first or avoiding them.

I think it took me like 4 or 5 tries to take down the elite guy in the dojo guarding access to Genichiro. It was getting used to his attacks. It helps a bit if you notice his sword will glint just before he begins attacking(since he's doing that style where he pulls it straight from the scabbard into a strike).

I almost always that first stealth deathblow on seven spears. It's knocking him down on the 2nd that hurts so much because that spear has a LONG reach and he's really good at smacking you with it. And then there's that overhead twirl thing which just sucks. I'm gonna hold off on him till later but his day is coming. It's not even about the prayer bead anymore. He deserves to die for all the trouble he's caused.

I?ve read the Elite was is optional because you can break down the wall to get to Genichiro. Oh well he was worth the bead at least.

He is. The wall behind the two fencers just below the dojo idol is breakable, which leads you to a long hallway and a couple nightjars you also have to get past. THen you go out the window, back out onto the roof and back across to fight gen.

Which is fine if you can't beat the elite fencer but it's a pain in the ass and if you can't beat the fencer(granted, theres a way to cheese him but some skill is still required), you're probably not ready for gen. I guess I can see why they put the bypass in there but I'd honestly rather just kill the elite who doesn't respawn, prove I'm ready for Gen and open up the very short route to gen rather then fight or try to blitz five not trivial enemies on the the alternate route during the no doubt many time I'll have to re-challenge gen.

Which is how these games should handle their difficultly/shortcuts, IMHO. Place a bonfire/shortcut, have a challenging but non-respawnable mini-boss that acts as a skill check to the boss you're likely gonna make numerous runs guarding it or have a longer route with respawnable enemies otherwise.

I feel like there's a perfect anti-thesis in the souls games where the shortcut is actually more annoying then the longer route but other then the bridge to the bed of chaos in DS1 I'm having a hard time thinking of one off the top of my head. I'm sure Dark Souls 2 has a great example somewhere due to the number of poor design designs you can find through that game alongside some of the good stuff(I'm not saying Ds2 is bad, but it's very uneven in quality).

It does make DS2 perhaps the most interesting game in the main souls series to discuss just because of how much it feels like they were trying to make something different and yet didn't seem to know what they were trying to accomplish. Thus you get this incredibly weird mix of things that do and don't work, difficulty that's all over the place and things that look like they were held over from an earlier development phase(the magical whirlpool in the intro was apparently supposed to be part of a time travel plot, which makes as much sense as any other theory I've heard).

Ravinoff:

WhiteFangofWhoa:
Pursuer.

The trick with Gundyr and Sulyvahn is learn their patterns and parry the hell out of them. Dodge until they let swing with an attack you know the timing for, then nail them with the counter and a few good hits after. That, and use a summon on Sulyvahn at least (the NPC one at Champion Gundyr isn't much use, being a naked guy with a katana), always helps to have something to split focus.

Deacons is just a matter of abusing iframes to slap around the active one and roll out before anyone can retaliate. The candle guys in particular are terrible. Curse fog and homing Deep Soul spam will absolutely fuck you up if you follow your instincts and play cautiously. Get out your Hollowslayer Greatsword and just wade in swinging and things tend to work out.

Pursuer (and the entirety of Lost Bastille) can just get fucked, though. I'll take Smelter Demon over that entire shitshow any day. And as for other DS2 bosses...The Duke's Dear Freyja. Eeeeugh. I'm not particularly arachnophobic, and spiders/insects in games basically never bother me, but the sheer amount of big fucking spiders in that whole area just makes my skin crawl. And of course there's no bonfire near the fog door, so you have to go down the creepy-ass web pit every time you die.

Spiders x Facehuggers = Fun times in Tseldora

Freyja was another of those 'askew difficulty' bosses I'm surprised doesn't get more hate/reputation for the amount of obstacles in the way of your victory. You can only damage it when it's not shooting the laser or attacking directly in front of it, it constantly turns so it's difficult to get many hits in on the face, and if you try doing that when there's lots of baby spiders around (read: 90% of the time) you'll likely end up trapped while it does a stomp or laser. Probably killed me about 10 times or more.

Damn it, why isn't it a mechanic that you can put a permanent summon sign at the boss you loathe the most? If that isn't feasible, make it summon a decently competent AI copy of your build. I'd certainly give up regular summon signs to be able to do that. The satisfaction of killing them again and again, while making sure fewer players have to suffer the way you do, as well as training for your next run.

Thing about parry-focused bosses is... I can't do it. I've tried over and over and over, and every time the game just treats it like a regular hit where I stopped blocking. That's why I love the Twin Dragon Shield XD

WhiteFangofWhoa:

Damn it, why isn't it a mechanic that you can put a permanent summon sign at the boss you loathe the most? If that isn't feasible, make it summon a decently competent AI copy of your build. I'd certainly give up regular summon signs to be able to do that. The satisfaction of killing them again and again, while making sure fewer players have to suffer the way you do, as well as training for your next run.

Thing about parry-focused bosses is... I can't do it. I've tried over and over and over, and every time the game just treats it like a regular hit where I stopped blocking. That's why I love the Twin Dragon Shield XD

I've never managed to figure out how to effectively parry in the Souls games so I got through DS1/DS2 pretty much without ever doing it. Hell, I found shields ineffective for most of the bosses because it felt like most of them just eat through your stamina like a hot knife through butter(if they didn't stagger you outright) so I just got really, really good at dodging boss attacks and somehow that worked.

Other times I won through tactical use of summoning, because that edge of having someone else distract the boss even if only for a moment sometimes was just enough(Fuck you, Fume Knight). This felt almost mandatory in what I call Gank Bosses, where you face more then one of them and again, it feels like having someone else there to help draw the heat off you or at least keep one of the bosses occupied while you deal with the others can a ton of difference(Fuck you Shadows of Yharnam). Even the NPC summons have their use here, assuming they don't die immediately if you look at them. In a game where facing more then one trash mob at a time can become a losing proposition very quickly, trying to track and deal with more then one boss at a time feels overwhelming, especially if there's no way to seperate them in the arena. "Haha, while you were trying to get hits on one boss, the other one was coming up behind you to smack you down and now you're sandwiched between them. Enjoy that run from the bonfire again"

Shield sometime works for boss, but not all. Essentially shield works when boss attack isn't crazy on the tracking, so that you can stop shielding mid attack (ie you block one attack while positioning yourself so that the next attack miss you so you can recover some stamina). The problem is has the series as evolved, they really cranked up the tracking to ridiculous level and unless you know exactly what the attack are it's really hard to position yourself correctly. So you end up having to rely more and more on i-frame since it just get easier to line up.

But demon's soul shield playstyle was great because the tracking was very limited in it.

Meiam:
Shield sometime works for boss, but not all. Essentially shield works when boss attack isn't crazy on the tracking, so that you can stop shielding mid attack (ie you block one attack while positioning yourself so that the next attack miss you so you can recover some stamina). The problem is has the series as evolved, they really cranked up the tracking to ridiculous level and unless you know exactly what the attack are it's really hard to position yourself correctly. So you end up having to rely more and more on i-frame since it just get easier to line up.

But demon's soul shield playstyle was great because the tracking was very limited in it.

It also depends on attack type, but I'm pretty sure DS2 is the ultimate offender. I'm over 50 hours into DS3 and haven't noticed any tracking problems enough that I'd remember, whether melee or projectiles, locked or unlocked.

I thought I beat Genichiro only to be met by his lightning form. It got me wondering if I have an added, self-imposed layer of difficulty by playing this game on a projector with 67ms of input lag (best case). I mean on one hand I beat Lady Butterfly pretty handedly with lesser stats, but this guy requires far more parrying with 3 life bars to get through, and a slow building posture meter. I also have the game on PC with a DS4 usb-connected, so I should try to match progress and see how much of a difference there is. Might even make a quick video for reference and fun.

hanselthecaretaker:

Meiam:
Shield sometime works for boss, but not all. Essentially shield works when boss attack isn't crazy on the tracking, so that you can stop shielding mid attack (ie you block one attack while positioning yourself so that the next attack miss you so you can recover some stamina). The problem is has the series as evolved, they really cranked up the tracking to ridiculous level and unless you know exactly what the attack are it's really hard to position yourself correctly. So you end up having to rely more and more on i-frame since it just get easier to line up.

But demon's soul shield playstyle was great because the tracking was very limited in it.

It also depends on attack type, but I?m pretty sure DS2 is the ultimate offender. I?m over 50 hours into DS3 and haven?t noticed any tracking problems enough that I?d remember, whether melee or projectiles, locked or unlocked.

Yeah, I remember early in DS2 when you met those huge guys on the path to the tower of flame and I noticed they'd track even after they'd begin swinging, making it incredibly hard to dodge them. I think it was about that time I starting feeling that DS2 wasn't as well put together as the first Dark Souls. There's the Level design too but that's a whole separate argument I could go on about for days if given the chance.

Dalisclock:

hanselthecaretaker:

Meiam:
Shield sometime works for boss, but not all. Essentially shield works when boss attack isn't crazy on the tracking, so that you can stop shielding mid attack (ie you block one attack while positioning yourself so that the next attack miss you so you can recover some stamina). The problem is has the series as evolved, they really cranked up the tracking to ridiculous level and unless you know exactly what the attack are it's really hard to position yourself correctly. So you end up having to rely more and more on i-frame since it just get easier to line up.

But demon's soul shield playstyle was great because the tracking was very limited in it.

It also depends on attack type, but I?m pretty sure DS2 is the ultimate offender. I?m over 50 hours into DS3 and haven?t noticed any tracking problems enough that I?d remember, whether melee or projectiles, locked or unlocked.

Yeah, I remember early in DS2 when you met those huge guys on the path to the tower of flame and I noticed they'd track even after they'd begin swinging, making it incredibly hard to dodge them. I think it was about that time I starting feeling that DS2 wasn't as well put together as the first Dark Souls. There's the Level design too but that's a whole separate argument I could go on about for days if given the chance.

The thing I found most perplexing about DS2 is that is had weirdly good polish for some small specific things and obvious bullshit bandaids for others. The big armors in Dragon Shrine had hammers where if the haft hit you it did way less health or stamina damage than the head. I did it often enough that I'm sure it wasn't a bug - somebody actually just gave an enemy a weapon with area specific damage and knockback. I know that's not a mindblowing thing, but they could have easily made the weapon full damage everywhere or just have the haft phase through you but for some reason a programmer went the extra mile on that one in a game full of "whoops, well fudge it so the difficulty is right".

hanselthecaretaker:
I thought I beat Genichiro only to be met by his lightning form. It got me wondering if I have an added, self-imposed layer of difficulty by playing this game on a projector with 67ms of input lag (best case). I mean on one hand I beat Lady Butterfly pretty handedly with lesser stats, but this guy requires far more parrying with 3 life bars to get through, and a slow building posture meter. I also have the game on PC with a DS4 usb-connected, so I should try to match progress and see how much of a difference there is. Might even make a quick video for reference and fun.

I'm still working on his 2nd lifebar. He's easier to handle once his lifebar is down to half because then his posture actually depletes at a decent rate but until them you're chipping aware at him.

Haven't made it to the lightening round yet. I feel like I've got a decent handle on his moves but I mess up enough that it's not helping me much. I've found I accidentally try to do the overhead chop(ichimonji?) when I'm not trying to and he smacks me for it so I disabled that for the fight.

Apparently once Gen takes off his armor his posture breaks a lot faster....assuming you can survive his attacks.

Dalisclock:

hanselthecaretaker:
I thought I beat Genichiro only to be met by his lightning form. It got me wondering if I have an added, self-imposed layer of difficulty by playing this game on a projector with 67ms of input lag (best case). I mean on one hand I beat Lady Butterfly pretty handedly with lesser stats, but this guy requires far more parrying with 3 life bars to get through, and a slow building posture meter. I also have the game on PC with a DS4 usb-connected, so I should try to match progress and see how much of a difference there is. Might even make a quick video for reference and fun.

I'm still working on his 2nd lifebar. He's easier to handle once his lifebar is down to half because then his posture actually depletes at a decent rate but until them you're chipping aware at him.

Haven't made it to the lightening round yet. I feel like I've got a decent handle on his moves but I mess up enough that it's not helping me much. I've found I accidentally try to do the overhead chop(ichimonji?) when I'm not trying to and he smacks me for it so I disabled that for the fight.

Apparently once Gen takes off his armor his posture breaks a lot faster....assuming you can survive his attacks.

For bosses I like Ichimonji over Whirlwind, which is the only other slot-able art I have so far. Either can be easily unintentional though since often youre guarding to regain posture. I like using it airborne as a counter sometimes.

Apparently you can also retaliate for big damage if he hits you with lightning while you're airborne, provided you time the jump/attack right. I've only gotten to the third round twice before going back to do some more exploring. I know I'm not quite ready for Sunken Valley as the Snake Eye dude wrecks me pretty quickly, with that cannon as a "fuck you" attack following any posture meter I managed to build him. I might be able to cheese him a bit on a nearby rock ledge but for a straight up posture battle I'm no match yet. I need perfect blocks or my meter fills about triple his going hit by hit.

If you haven't yet, it's well worth dropping down the atrium inside Ashina Castle too. Locking on to death blow an elite on the way down is a nice bonus.

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