Question about waifu culture - Re: Persona 5

I've just finished Persona 5 - amazing game btw with so many different elements. I was very addicted to it to the point that I wasn't sleeping. Clocked in around 130 hours and had to get it finished in the end so it wasn't encroaching on work, social life etc.

One thing that I noticed though - the number of optional anime girls you could romance. I just stuck with Ann because I maxed her out first and I also didn't really want to play a dating sim. But it got me to thinking about amine culture. Why is it acceptable to date girls who are clearly in the wrong age bracket for the main character? Fubata is clearly quite underage and he also initially basically treats her like his sister. WTF. She must be only 14 or something. And why is it an option to get with your teacher and doctor, who are clearly significantly older than the main character?

I suppose I noticed this kind of thing in anime before, but because I played Persona for so long I noticed more. Is this to cater to every type of suppressed fantasy a guy might have in order have to capitalise on some things that people secretly fantasise about but won't say? Because if that's the case, some people are sick (underage more than overage).

Joker and Futaba are only a year apart in age.

ChupathingyX:
Joker and Futaba are only a year apart in age.

Is 14-15 underage in Japan and 16 legal? Also this calls into question the morality of the doctor and teacher characters.

Age of consent in Japan is 13.

That explains a lot when you think about it. 0_0

I bought persona 5 but then they annouunced persona 5 R shortly afterwards and then i was like: fuck it. If i'm gonna play it i may as well just play the better version of it

Hawki:
Age of consent in Japan is 13.

Under certain circumstances, if I'm not mistaken.

You won't be getting with any 13 year old if you're, for example, a thirty year old.

Keep in mind that the people who are into this waifu stuff are mostly degenerates, they don't care as long as they get to live out their fantasies. No further thought needed about it, it's a degenerate culture of degenerate delusional young, and old, males getting taken advantage off by developers.

Age of consent varies. Its kind of the reverse of USA law were Federal usually trumps state. Each prefecture usually has the consent much high at 16-18 (about the same standard as most countries, even a high number of US states are about 17 when it comes to consent). THey also have a different standards when it comes to boinking., I.E. legal minors hooking up is one thing. Adult and minor usually as much a red flag there as much as it is here state side.

You see things like Riku in FFX and FfX-2, or Highschool of the dead because those tend to be aimed at high schoolers, the audience with the most disposable income as they don't necessarily have to use the majority of their earnings on medicine, rent, food, utilities, and the bar tab of your superior you are trying to suck up to in the office.

They have been coming down on it, I remember an old Nuts and Bolts on Bennet's the Sage's old reviews where they were cracking down the loli crap.

The other is they have different nudity and sex taboos.

Alot of this is also wish fulfilment. Its the same stick as any given harem back in the old days (a looser super geek somehow has several 8 out of 10's hanging around him regardless if he wants them or not but they ALL WANT HIM) or today (Looser in the real world or in the setting, but also super awsome enough to get his own brigade of female followers that also want him alone with candle light and a coppy of Boyz 2 Men greatest hit compilation. The former would be something like Golden Boy, the latter being Sword Art.

Hawki:
Age of consent in Japan is 13.

That explains a lot when you think about it. 0_0

It's not.

The minimum age for consent is 13 in the Japanese Penal Code, however the Child Welgare Act forbids sexual activity with anyone under 18. But there are also Juvenile Obscene Acts at the prefectural and municipal level, which put age of consent at ages ranging from 15 to 18, and these supercede the Penal Code. There is also Civil Law, which puts the adult legal age at 20. This means that in some prefectures, it is illegal to date (let alone have sex with) anyone under the age of 20 without parental consent, regardless of your own age. To make things even more complicated many prefectures also have additional specific laws, like Tokyo's Youth Protection Law which makes it illegal for any adult to have sexual relations with anyone under 17.

Basically, despite the fact the national age of consent is 13, all the additional regulations and laws mean Japan on the whole has some of the higher age of consent laws in the world, and the de facto age of consent is widely considered to be 18 or higher. In short, if you think they might be too young, better to just don't. If not, a cop may end up putting a firm hand on your shoulder and ask you come with them for a little talk, especially if you're hitting on someone in school uniform.

Chimpzy:

Hawki:
Age of consent in Japan is 13.

That explains a lot when you think about it. 0_0

It's not.

The minimum age for consent is 13 in the Japanese Penal Code, however the Child Welgare Act forbids sexual activity with anyone under 18. But there are also Juvenile Obscene Acts at the prefectural and municipal level, which put age of consent at ages ranging from 15 to 18, and these supercede the Penal Code. There is also Civil Law, which puts the adult legal age at 20. This means that in some prefectures, it is illegal to date (let alone have sex with) anyone under the age of 20 without parental consent, regardless of your own age. To make things even more complicated many prefectures also have additional specific laws, like Tokyo's Youth Protection Law which makes it illegal for any adult to have sexual relations with anyone under 17.

Basically, despite the fact the national age of consent is 13, all the additional regulations and laws mean Japan on the whole has some of the higher age of consent laws in the world, and the de facto age of consent is widely considered to be 18 or higher. In short, if you think they might be too young, better to just don't. If not, a cop may end up putting a firm hand on your shoulder and ask you come with them for a little talk, especially if you're hitting on someone in school uniform.

Japans laws sound similar to Australian Law tbh. in Australia the age of consent is 16 but the 2 people still have to be aged within 2 years of each other, like an 18 year old going out with a 16 year old is fine but a 30 year old going out with a 16 year old just sounds creepy so the laws protect that kinda pedophile type of stuff from happening.

for most part though 18 years of age is still considered the normal age for people to be doing anything sexual here.

Yoshi178:

Chimpzy:
snip

Japans laws sound similar to Australian Law tbh. in Australia the age of consent is 16 but the 2 people still have to be aged within 2 years of each other, like an 18 year old going out with a 16 year old is fine but a 30 year old going out with a 16 year old just sounds creepy so the laws protect that kinda pedophile type of stuff from happening.

for most part though 18 years of age is still considered the normal age for people to be doing anything sexual here.

Here in Belgium the age of consent is also 16, but without the "be within 2 years of each other" provision. So it's technically legal for someone in their thirties to date a 16 year old, but this is generally frowned upon and considered creepy at best, and 18 or higher the hard limit for dateable age for the vast majority of adult people. Tho exceptions are sometimes made if dating started when both partners were underage, say a 19 year old in an ongoing relationship with a 17 year old, and only really if the older partner did not have a position of power or thrust over the younger.

On the flipside, you have people like myself who still worry people will think my SO too young even tho we're both working adults (I turn 35 next months, she just turned 26, tho she's honestly way more mature and wordly than I).

I'm curious as to what specifically in Persona 5 is degenerate about the relationships, you're not very specific about anything other than a problem with age that others here have clarified isn't an issue (The two characters you specify are a year apart in age).

The only romance option that feels gross is the teacher(Ukemi?), it doesn't really delve into the implications of a teacher moonlighting as a sex worker/adult entertainment(I know in game its not really prostitution but come on, it might as well be) let alone that she is willing to date a student. Its definitely a fan service thing but the characters are well written enough that it never bothered me much.

Specter Von Baren:
I'm curious as to what specifically in Persona 5 is degenerate about the relationships, you're not very specific about anything other than a problem with age that others here have clarified isn't an issue (The two characters you specify are a year apart in age).

I never used the word degenerate. That was used by others in this thread. I just pointed out there's something a bit sick about it.

Futaba is 14/15 - underdeveloped - and plays a little sister role in the game. It's very weird to then date her.

The doctor and teacher, who are clearly grown adults, are OK with dating someone who's in high school - that's also very weird.

Specter Von Baren:
I'm curious as to what specifically in Persona 5 is degenerate about the relationships, you're not very specific about anything other than a problem with age that others here have clarified isn't an issue (The two characters you specify are a year apart in age).

I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok. But the teacher and doctor? They are most certainly adults. I'd estimate their respective ages at around mid 20's, and at least late 20's to early 30's. But then there's also their professions, both positions of authority and trust where it is widely considered a serious breach of professional conduct to date a student/patient, let alone one who's underage.

Well, it depends. You could role-play as the protagonist, and go for the teen romance. Or, as an adult player, you might have preference for adult women and find role-playing the teen romance tacky. Or just none, that's a choice too.

PS: Futaba is 15-16 years old; only one year younger than the protagonist.

PSS: If you try to go in multiple relationships, the end result is hilariously karmic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRiyJNgyxzU

Chimpzy:

Specter Von Baren:
I'm curious as to what specifically in Persona 5 is degenerate about the relationships, you're not very specific about anything other than a problem with age that others here have clarified isn't an issue (The two characters you specify are a year apart in age).

I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok. But the teacher and doctor? They are most certainly adults. I'd estimate their respective ages at around mid 20's, and at least late 20's to early 30's. But then there's also their professions, both positions of authority and trust where it is widely considered a serious breach of professional conduct to date a student/patient, let alone one who's underage.

How do these relationships play out? Is it from the start the protagonist trying to go out on a date with them?

Specter Von Baren:

Chimpzy:

Specter Von Baren:
I'm curious as to what specifically in Persona 5 is degenerate about the relationships, you're not very specific about anything other than a problem with age that others here have clarified isn't an issue (The two characters you specify are a year apart in age).

I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok. But the teacher and doctor? They are most certainly adults. I'd estimate their respective ages at around mid 20's, and at least late 20's to early 30's. But then there's also their professions, both positions of authority and trust where it is widely considered a serious breach of professional conduct to date a student/patient, let alone one who's underage.

How do these relationships play out? Is it from the start the protagonist trying to go out on a date with them?

Nope. The approach is at first non-romantic and more of a deal for mutual benefit (for example, the doctor sells you healing items in exchange of being her test subject for a new medicine). But as their backstory gets slowly revealed and the protagonist involves himself in helping them with their personal problems, things get more emotional until they ask the protagonist to clear up the air and tell them why he cares so much about them.

Specter Von Baren:

Chimpzy:

Specter Von Baren:
I'm curious as to what specifically in Persona 5 is degenerate about the relationships, you're not very specific about anything other than a problem with age that others here have clarified isn't an issue (The two characters you specify are a year apart in age).

I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok. But the teacher and doctor? They are most certainly adults. I'd estimate their respective ages at around mid 20's, and at least late 20's to early 30's. But then there's also their professions, both positions of authority and trust where it is widely considered a serious breach of professional conduct to date a student/patient, let alone one who's underage.

How do these relationships play out? Is it from the start the protagonist trying to go out on a date with them?

- The one with Futaba (15) is basically the story of the protagonist helping her to overcome her agoraphobia and fear of being in public. She ends up having strong feelings for the protagonist, and it seems to me like she's just grown dependent on him. You can either say you love her at that point or tell her she feels that way because they are teammates and that determines if you romance her or not.

- The one with the doctor, she asks you to take part in illegal clinic trials and you help her with some legal problems she's having and make her feel as if she is a good doctor by encouraging her to illegally treat patients. To be fair, she did lose her license unjustly. Later, you go for a walk in the park later and you can tell her you love her and she thinks it's a joke, and then you can tell her you are serious and turn it into a relationship. There was lots of flirting etc leading up to it, with her being the one in control of the situation

- The one with the teacher, she's got a part-time job doing a 'maid service', where she's basically keeping lonely men company by coming round to theirs and 'cleaning for them' How far she takes it with customers it doesn't say. You can ring her up for money and she'll do things for you like make coffee, clean, and eventually, you get massages. Turns out she's doing it for extra money because she's trying to pay for a relative's treatment or something. She ends up quitting and being a better teacher later on with the main characters' help... But the whole thing is a bit dodgy. You can tell her you want her to keep coming anyway later on and that you love her and you'll be in a relationship with her.

Futaba is 15 and Joker 16-17 so she's definitely not underage, though you're not wrong about the little sister vibes (spoiler; that's part of her charm!) , and in p3p you could date Ken with the female protagonist (Ken is legit like 11 lol). Oh and you must have not played a second playthrough in p5 and gotten the spoiler girl in blue that appears near the end of the game tell you she loves you XD.

But yeah, the whole age difference is just one of the many fetishes that it's fun to explore in a fictional medium. Not really anime culture in particular, just in Japan you have a larger freedom of the arts and expression so even if something is seen as not wholesome, it is tolerated because it's art and fictional and if you have to say something is ok then everything has to be ok since nobody should have the right to tell others what fictional setting is too deviant. And I dunno about you but most normal boys did have this one hot teacher they fantasized about dating while they were in school, so having such a setting in a game does not seem at all abnormal to me. (oh and the punk rock doctor lady is really badass too)

Dreiko:
Futaba is 15 and Joker 16-17 so she's definitely not underage

The legal age of adulthood is currently 20 in Japan (tho set to change to 18 in 2022), so they are both underage. If you meant age of consent, then the legal age is 13 according to national law, but this is superceded by prefectural law. Persona 5 takes place in Tokyo, where legal age of consent is 18. Again, both underage.

Dreiko:

But yeah, the whole age difference is just one of the many fetishes that it's fun to explore in a fictional medium. Not really anime culture in particular, just in Japan you have a larger freedom of the arts and expression so even if something is seen as not wholesome, it is tolerated because it's art and fictional and if you have to say something is ok then everything has to be ok since nobody should have the right to tell others what fictional setting is too deviant. And I dunno about you but most normal boys did have this one hot teacher they fantasized about dating while they were in school, so having such a setting in a game does not seem at all abnormal to me. (oh and the punk rock doctor lady is really badass too)

. . .

image

Chimpzy:
I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok.

Borderline? If they're 15 and 16, there isn't an age gap to speak of. How is that "maybe sort of borderline"?

dscross:
But it got me to thinking about amine culture. Why is it acceptable to date girls who are clearly in the wrong age bracket for the main character?

The culture? We joke and call each other lolicon, siscon, etc. for liking a certain show. It's no coincidence that there is a recurring joke where the MC gets mistaken for one, or gets attacked by angry females for something he didn't do.

Yes there are unironic lolicons and odd people, but note that these things are still depicted as wrong in these shows.

Is this to cater to every type of suppressed fantasy a guy might have in order have to capitalise on some things that people secretly fantasise about but won't say?

Yes actually.

The dateable characters in Persona are fetishes. You either go hard, or your character is flat and uninteresting. Every character also has a sob story to make them relatable. That's the formula.

Asita:

Chimpzy:
I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok.

Borderline? If they're 15 and 16, there isn't an age gap to speak of. How is that "maybe sort of borderline"?

15 is a little young to be fucking at all, but mileage will vary between persons and their beliefs on that.

I don't like my name anymore:

The dateable characters are Persona are fetishes. You either go hard, or your character is flat and uninteresting. Every character also has a sob story to make them relatable. That's the formula.

Is it your assertion that female characters must be victimized fetish bait for players to take care of in order to be well-written ?

pokes bear

SupahEwok:

I don't like my name anymore:

The dateable characters are Persona are fetishes. You either go hard, or your character is flat and uninteresting. Every character also has a sob story to make them relatable. That's the formula.

Is it your assertion that female characters must be victimized fetish bait for players to take care of in order to be well-written ?

pokes bear

Victimized isn't really the right term, they all have challenges (because this is a videogame) and through overcoming their challenges with your help you get to discover their character. It's not that they need those troubles but they act as the catalyst and ice breaker in a sense narratively, while the player sees it as character development. This is the same for the male chars you can't date as well by the way. Everyone has challenges, not just the fetish bait characters.

The fetish bait is just secondary to most characters (pretty much everyone outside of Anne who is the quintessential westerner blond blue eyed supermodel that the Japanese find exotic) and unless it's yours you won't even notice it being there which is the smart thing about it. To most eyes this person is a person so all the meaning is kept hidden for those who can appreciate it while everyone else is none the wiser.

What you do see happen sometimes is you have people who are upset that other people are enjoying a game for reasons that include things they find sinful, despite either not having played the game at all or not noticing these themes and needing to read about them online in order to perceive them. I find it weird to be concerned over something this degree of nor your business lol.

Asita:

Chimpzy:
I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok.

Borderline? If they're 15 and 16, there isn't an age gap to speak of. How is that "maybe sort of borderline"?

SupahEwok:
15 is a little young to be fucking at all, but mileage will vary between persons and their beliefs on that.

Pretty much what the empowered little beardude said. Should've probably added "borderline ok, depending on what you personally think is a morally acceptable age to start having sex."

Chimpzy:

Asita:

Chimpzy:
I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok.

Borderline? If they're 15 and 16, there isn't an age gap to speak of. How is that "maybe sort of borderline"?

SupahEwok:
15 is a little young to be fucking at all, but mileage will vary between persons and their beliefs on that.

Pretty much what the empowered little beardude said. Should've probably added "borderline ok, depending on what you personally think is a morally acceptable age to start having sex."

Ah, I misunderstood your intent then. Given the context of the thread I thought we were talking predatory relationships. My mistake.

SupahEwok:

Asita:

Chimpzy:
I haven't played Persona 5, but some quick research reveals the main character is 16. Him dating the 15yo is maybe sort of borderline ok.

Borderline? If they're 15 and 16, there isn't an age gap to speak of. How is that "maybe sort of borderline"?

15 is a little young to be fucking at all, but mileage will vary between persons and their beliefs on that.

Technically speaking, Japanese provinces don't typically have "Romeo and Juliet" style "if they're within a couple years of each other it's fine" style loopholes. For example, Persona 5 is set in Tokyo, where the age of consent is 18 (without parental approval, because of course). So Joker shouldn't be having sex with anyone, legally speaking. Unless they get their parents to okay the nookie, which would be a weird-ass conversation
If it were somewhere in Japan where the age of consent was 16, it wouldn't matter if one person was 16 years and 364 days and the other was 18 years and 1 day, ones and adult and one isn't, so it's illegal.
This has occasionally led to arrests. A lot of schools discourage dating because your 16 year old lovebirds could get picked up by the cops on a date in Tokyo. (This is more of a theoretical problem than an actual one.)
Long answer on the age of consent is "it's complicated". On a national law level, the age of consent for girls is 13, there isn't one for boys, and adults can't have sex with children. Most of the previous sentence is overwritten by local laws, much like the federal age of consent (and marriage) in the United States is 12.

 

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