Final Fantasy 7 Remake Full Review - I have thoughts. (spoilers at the end)

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PsychedelicDiamond:

dscross:

PsychedelicDiamond:
So, I know this sounds like shameless gushing about a game I loved but what can I say? I had a great time with it. I can't wait for the sequel. People will now probably tell me how disrespectful it is to the original and how I'd hate it if I had played that but as far as I'm concerned, it was a hell of an opener.

Are you going to now go back and play the original if you liked it so you can get some context for the bits you found underexplained?

Maybe I should but for one, I still assume the sequels will get into those, and also, I find turn based RPGs very hard to put up with. I know I'm missing out on some classic games because of that attitude but, you know, I just lack the patience for that kind of combat.

I'm not sure they will. I think they'll go off on their own tangent.

If you want to play it it's not that hard to play for people who don't like the combat if you get it off the PS4 store (or an emulator for that matter). On the ps4 one, you can cheat and speed through the battles and make yourself invincible if you literally just want to watch the story. It's all done with L3 and R3. You can also turn random encounters off whenever you want. It will take you much less time to get through but you'll still have the feeling of exploration you got in the original and you'll understand the context - you'll still really enjoy it.

That Midgar bit is just basically a long tutorial section and story set up. If you are skipping through the battles you'll get through that bit in less than a couple of hours.

This game is absolutely amazing... until it isn't.

One of its best aspects is that it keeps things "simple", whether it's the world, the characters, or their motivations. It's distinctly lacking any of the usual Square Enix, Nomura, incomprehensible, nonsense idiocy... until it isn't.

I'd say everything before you go to the Shinra HQ is pretty much gold. The characters are likeable, the world is beautiful and lively (and just as important; practical and easy to parse), the combat is fucking fenomenal, and it's all presented in gorgous visuals and with excellent music. The game does definitely stretch itself out at certain sections. Even never having really played the original I could feel this remake holding up giant 'detour' signs, where they wouldn't have been originally. And Sephiroth showing up too much was a little irksome, but since the game always kept its eye on the current goal it didn't bother me too much... until it did.

Shinra HQ is where things quickly started to fall apart for me. In a nutshell, the game just doesn't fucking end. From the very start it's gearing you up for the ending, you can feel it. But then it continues on for another 5 hours at least. Here's where the game stretching itself out really caught in my throat. You can make a game as long as you want and pad out the content, but when you're giving the player the idea that they're reaching the end, DO NOT have the game go on incessantly where it feels like you need to drag it kicking and sceaming across the finish line. There were still some good moments at Shinra, like the scene between Hojo and Aerith, and the VR combat arena. But overall this chapter gave me a migraine with how long it went on.

But worse of all, the ending was all about the ghosts and Sephiroth; the two least interesting parts of this game. I could sort of appreciate the mystery of the ghosts and their little prods into the storyline, but them as the main focus was boring and stank of Nomura mumbo jumbo. Then there's Sephiroth who's only a big deal in this game because he's a big deal in gaming pop culture. Nothing about his presence in this remake justified him being the final Boss, or the game lingering on him like that.

It's funny, because I was pretty in love with this game for the majority. I haven't even mentioned the joy of Wall Market, or how terrific it handles the event where you try to stop the plate from getting dropped. This game was breathtaking, and I never expected to say that about a Square Enix game. But then the Square/Nomura shit hit like a bomb in the final stretch, and I'm finding it hard to remember the good times through the horrid stench that is currently hanging over it.

Casual Shinji:

It's funny, because I was pretty in love with this game for the majority. I haven't even mentioned the joy of Wall Market, or how terrific it handles the event where you try to stop the plate from getting dropped. This game was breathtaking, and I never expected to say that about a Square Enix game. But then the Square/Nomura shit hit like a bomb in the final stretch, and I'm finding it hard to remember the good times through the horrid stench that is currently hanging over it.

Such a shame. I did suspect that was the case but loads of people seem to be ok with it for some reason - I think I need to experience this so I can judge this for myself. There's been so much buzz about this game that I definitely want to play it and see what all the controversy and good moments are all about.

I've just been rushing through the original so I can experience it with eyes fresh off the original and see it for myself - I was going to wait for a price drop but I really want to understand what's going on with it, which I suppose is a testament to their marketing strategy.

dscross:

Casual Shinji:

It's funny, because I was pretty in love with this game for the majority. I haven't even mentioned the joy of Wall Market, or how terrific it handles the event where you try to stop the plate from getting dropped. This game was breathtaking, and I never expected to say that about a Square Enix game. But then the Square/Nomura shit hit like a bomb in the final stretch, and I'm finding it hard to remember the good times through the horrid stench that is currently hanging over it.

Such a shame. I did suspect that was the case but loads of people seem to be ok with it for some reason - I think I need to experience this so I can judge this for myself. There's been so much buzz about this game that I definitely want to play it and see what all the controversy and good moments are all about.

I've just been rushing through the original so I can experience it with eyes fresh off the original and see it for myself - I was going to wait for a price drop but I really want to understand what's going on with it, which I suppose is a testament to their marketing strategy.

No matter my feelings on the ending, it's still the best game Square has made in.. probably a decade and a half.

It's amazing how fantastic Final Fantasy games can be when they're not trying to be so ridiculously fantastic. Which is what the ending of FF7R unfortunately pulls. Just have a nice clean focus on the characters and the world they live in; we don't need super saiyan sword fights against literal manifestations of destiny that take place in floaty dimensions.

Casual Shinji:
No matter my feelings on the ending, it's still the best game Square has made in.. probably a decade and a half.

Better than FFXII, Bravely Default, or Octopath Traveler?

Silvanus:

Casual Shinji:
No matter my feelings on the ending, it's still the best game Square has made in.. probably a decade and a half.

Better than FFXII, Bravely Default, or Octopath Traveler?

Can't speak for Bravely Default, but yes in regards to the other two. FF12 has the most dull, and sleep inducing dialoge, and Octopath Traveler decided to have a story but not really.

Casual Shinji:
But worse of all, the ending was all about the ghosts and Sephiroth; the two least interesting parts of this game. I could sort of appreciate the mystery of the ghosts and their little prods into the storyline, but them as the main focus was boring and stank of Nomura mumbo jumbo. Then there's Sephiroth who's only a big deal in this game because he's a big deal in gaming pop culture. Nothing about his presence in this remake justified him being the final Boss, or the game lingering on him like that.

It makes sense that it feels off because the game is way off script by that point. The original didn't have any ghosts and you don't even see Sephiroth until well after you've left Midgar.

This is exactly what I was worried about, and the reason I lost my enthusiasm for a FF7 remake about 5 years before it was even announced. Square Enix just has no ability to tell a coherent story whatsoever and never has. I think the only game I ever even enjoyed that had an Enix on it was The World Ends With You.

Silvanus:

Bravely Default

It doesn't take much to be better than Bravely, okay you've played through the game, now do it four more times for the true ending, Default.

Drathnoxis:

Casual Shinji:
But worse of all, the ending was all about the ghosts and Sephiroth; the two least interesting parts of this game. I could sort of appreciate the mystery of the ghosts and their little prods into the storyline, but them as the main focus was boring and stank of Nomura mumbo jumbo. Then there's Sephiroth who's only a big deal in this game because he's a big deal in gaming pop culture. Nothing about his presence in this remake justified him being the final Boss, or the game lingering on him like that.

It makes sense that it feels off because the game is way off script by that point. The original didn't have any ghosts and you don't even see Sephiroth until well after you've left Midgar.

This is exactly what I was worried about, and the reason I lost my enthusiasm for a FF7 remake about 5 years before it was even announced. Square Enix just has no ability to tell a coherent story whatsoever and never has. I think the only game I ever even enjoyed that had an Enix on it was The World Ends With You.

That's the thing though. I don't mind the slight self awareness/4th wall breaking this game has in regards to it being a remake. One of the best moments is what appears to be a 4th wall break, with Aerith seemingly shushing a character to stop them from revealing something that might spoil the audience. But it's a subtle and cute gesture along with it being mysterious and kinda cool. It infers Aerith is sort of aware of what is to come, and of the audience watching. It almost feels like a David Lynch scene.

These moments don't sacrifice story cohesion for the sake of hyping up fans, while still giving a good tease. But the last hour or so of the game totally does by making it all about the stupid ghosts and Sephiroth. It's hyping it up to be so bloody important, when neither were depicted as that important yet. It's kind of stupid how quickly Sephiroth is made to be a big deal by the end. It's like the developers thought 'Oh shit, we've only shown Sephiroth as a ghost from Cloud's past for the first 95% of the game, but he obviously needs a Boss fight. Ah fuck it, he's just physically there now.'

It's stupid Kingdom Hearts bullshit, and maybe fans of the Original FF7 have a shield for that, but having played it I don't have that same protection, and it's like I'm getting vommited in the face.

Casual Shinji:
snip

So you wanna go off the deep end with me and understand the ending? Check this out!

Casual Shinji:
Can't speak for Bravely Default, but yes in regards to the other two. FF12 has the most dull, and sleep inducing dialoge, and Octopath Traveler decided to have a story but not really.

Hrmm, well, agree to disagree, I suppose. I really enjoyed both. FF12's dialogue isn't the best, but it's got some charming characters and involved lore. Octopath's story is muted by Square Enix standards, but some would say that's a blessing-- and would certainly outclass "fighting the manifestation of fate to save your friends" in the credibility stakes.

Drathnoxis:
It doesn't take much to be better than Bravely, okay you've played through the game, now do it four more times for the true ending, Default.

Well, alright. That's the only one of the three I mentioned that I haven't properly played. But I know it was pretty widely liked/ acclaimed, and the issue you outline above doesn't seem to have done Nier Automata any harm.

CritialGaming:

Silvanus:

Drathnoxis:
It doesn't take much to be better than Bravely, okay you've played through the game, now do it four more times for the true ending, Default.

Well, alright. That's the only one of the three I mentioned that I haven't properly played. But I know it was pretty widely liked/ acclaimed, and the issue you outline above doesn't seem to have done Nier Automata any harm.

It's probably the dumbest implementation of that trope they could have done. I was baffled by the acclaim that game had gotten after playing it. I haven't played Nier Automata yet, so I don't know how they do it but I'm willing to bet that Bravely Default does it worse.

If you don't mind spoilers:

CritialGaming:

Casual Shinji:
snip

So you wanna go off the deep end with me and understand the ending? Check this out!

Eh...I'd argue that part.

So I finally beat the game after trying to do everything that was doable in a single playthrough, ended up taking just over 52 hours. Now I can actually talk about it cause I was avoiding all threads to avoid spoilers.

Long story short I'm very impressed. I went into the game blind beyond the very first bits of the announcement trailer. I just heard things about it such as it being action based an not turn based. I'm someone who always prefers turn based combat in rpgs so I was disappointed but still kept an open mind going in.

Combat felt just pure fun with enough complexity to make you switch up your approaches. It felt like it was always too little and I just wanted to get to experience more of it from the start and that feeling actually never really went away. The rhythm of trying to swap around efficiently while people are executing unique actions with long animations to maximize ATB generation and maximizing how you use unique actions (always start with Barret cause he has a cooldown on his unique action that gives him enough ATB to cast aoe haste/scan, always go to Tifa for stagger %+ buffs, parry all the things with Cloud, fire your 2ATB lazors with Aeris while praying the pain away etc.) keeps you busy and there's enough variety in enemy behaviors that you have to adapt a lot. One of my favorite fights was that flying mech house in the arena story where it gained unique defenses and you had to keep scanning it to hit it with the right stuff. That's where I got a real taste of what they really want out of you and it only got better from there.

Storywise, I can see things being divisive but to me I think most of the "new" stuff is just them elaborating on parts of the game you just didn't necessarily see but which still were plausable in the original. I can tell whoever made the new stuff had a deep understanding of the story because they never felt like barnacles stuck on an original but just like you dusted off parts of it which were always there but couldn't be seen. The ending turned up the dial to 11 because I guess they wanted to give something that feels like an ending to a part of the game that's barely getting in the middle, but the way in which they did it with all those references to future parts of the game was very elegant and the battles were just spectacular too so I can't see anyone complaining about it being pretty different. Finally on the story element, I just freaking love that they are incorporating Crisis Core stuff in this. First time I saw Tifa's cowgirl getup I was so hype and like "wew, are we gonna get Zack in this game this soon!?!?" and the game surely didn't disappoint. Crisis Core was the last FFVII thing I played back in the day, I had not played the original for something like 15 years but a lot of my memories of the series were refreshed with Crisis Core so it is an inextricable part of the FFVII world for me and I didn't see it be recognized enough so seeing it get its dues now in this game is very satisfying. Almost teared up when Zack was carrying Cloud bad after fighting all those soldiers, though they didn't have him be as bloodied as he was in CC haha. In general I guess they avoided blood in this game to keep it to a lower rating. Either way, that whole part was amazing.

Soundwise, the voice actors were all top notch anime talent that has been voicing these characters since Advent Children and then Dissidia and Crisis Core and so on. Takahiro Sakurai fits the cool emo protags like Sasuke and Haseo so he is a natural fit for Cloud while Aeris is gentle and strong so who better than Aigis and Janne d'Arc seiyuu Maaya Sakamoto for her. And you can't say Shigeru Chiba doesn't do an incredible mad scientist haha. Also the recently departed Keiji Inafune was voicing Reno in this so that's quite a bang he went off with, RIP turk bro.

The actual music is FF music and a ton of remasters, so it's obviously amazing. I especially love the remix of one winged angel you hear slowly and ominously winding up during the intro and some late parts but yeah not much to say about music, it's incredible. It also works as funny references, such for example when you get the "descendant of the shinobi" jukebox disc right as you're doing the sidequest of the totally-not-Yuffie girl with the striped socks lol. You're not hiding your secrets very well, game.

So yeah, now I'll do hard mode stuff, still a lot of arena battles to challenge. Also gotta get all those dresses unlocked somehow, that will be fun too. But mainly can't wait for the next part in 3 years or however much they'll take to make it.

Oh and before I forget, I don't get what about this game is supposed to be too hard. The hardest fight I did was the Leviathan summon which I thought I would have to solo with Cloud like I did Shiva and big boi chocobo so I gave him all the best materia so when I was in the fight I had Tifa and Barret with barely any materia equipped, and I still beat it just fine, it just took a lot longer and tidal wave would 1shot Tifa from max hp lol. Beyond that, for the entire game I had people equipping those accessories that give you no stats but can hold lots of materia to level them up as much as possible. Still, nothing was difficult, didn't use anything above a mega-potion either, and had legit very few chars die ever. The only time I actually saw a gameover screen was in the second bike segment boss fight lol. So yeah, the game is complex but not hard at all, it even has a pause button which lets you see what people are doing and parry in time, there's no need for timing like in Sekiro. The only way in which I can see people having difficulties is if they weren't using the command menu but were relying on the shortcuts, which are best ignored completely.

CritialGaming:

Casual Shinji:
snip

So you wanna go off the deep end with me and understand the ending? Check this out!

Yeah, I got most of that. I mean, the game literally shoves ghosts in your face to make you get it. It's not exactly subtle about it.

It's Kingdom Hearts BS. It's only there to rile up hardcore fans about the posibilities, rather than have it reflect on the characters in any meaningful way. If this was all for the sake of making a clean break from the original storyline I could sort of accept it, sorta. But you know whatever follows will be all about subversions and plottwists that may or may not happen, instead of good storytelling and human interactions.

Seriously, what about that ending had anything to do with the characters or the situations they've been in throughout the game? Nothing. It was all about the subversion of the original plotline. That's it. Well that sure is emotionally satisfying considering the 40+ hours I've been invested in this game where for 95% of the time none of these stupid plot ghosts showed up at all.

And it makes me not want to bother with another playthrough ever again, because I know everything was just for the sake of subversion, not actual good storytelling with likeable characters. Congratulations Square Enix, you made your very own Metal Gear Solid 2. Thanks for making me realize you're actually still shit.

Based on the future scenes they show during the fights in the singularity, if they're hinting at a ffvii where Aeris doesn't die and the what-if of that world, I'm all for that haha (according to the novels, it is her through the lifestream that stops the meteor during the final cutscene so without her there someone else will have to do something about it).

In any case, I don't see why they can't use interesting character development as a tool of subversion. It's not any less interesting because it's also performing that function while also being very interesting and engaging. Cloud and Sephiroth fighting the entropy of the universe together would also be pretty awesome haha.

My fav FF is VIII so I'm all for those trippy confusing plotlines that you only feel like you kinda get it. :D

Dreiko:
Finally on the story element, I just freaking love that they are incorporating Crisis Core stuff in this. First time I saw Tifa's cowgirl getup I was so hype and like "wew, are we gonna get Zack in this game this soon!?!?" and the game surely didn't disappoint.

That particular element wasn't specific to crisis core. She was in a cowboy outfit in all the Nibelheim flashback scenes in the original.

Asita:

Eh...I'd argue that part.

This has been a consistent argument for absolute yonks, and there's a fair amount of evidence either way.

* Hojo states that he initially expected the "Reunion" impulse to draw all those with Jenova cells to the Shinra building, where the largest piece of Jenova's body is stored. He then says it's "all Sephiroth's doing" that the Reunion impulse ended up bringing them to the Northern Crater instead (and thus to Sephiroth, and to Jenova's head).

* In the FF7 Ultimania:

The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

These would certainly seem to confirm that it's Sephiroth drawing the clones (and Cloud) to the Northern Crater, to deliver him the Black Materia.

However, that doesn't quite settle who exactly you're following for most of the game. As I mentioned before, when Cloud catches up to "Sephiroth", "Sephiroth" doesn't even recognise him, much to Cloud's confusion.

It's also stated that Jenova's MO is to mimic people. Not just transformation, but full mimicry, said to pretend to be people's "loved ones". It can't be a coincidence that Sephiroth's goal, to draw the comet to the planet and absorb the lifestream, is almost exactly the same as Jenova's intention during her previous invasion.

So, all in all, I'd say it's explicitly Sephiroth's impulse bringing the Reunion to the Northern Crater, and bringing him the Black Materia. That's his plan. But the person you're chasing is Jenova, and it is Jenova you speak to on the boat. The aims the two of them have are almost identical, and their relationship seems symbiotic (or I'm sure Sephiroth & Hojo would consider it a mother-son relationship).

===

On a side-note, I'd say that it's not a good idea to look to structural arguments to find lore in a FF game. After all, in FFIX, the same line of reasoning would place Necron as the main antagonist.

dscross:

Dreiko:
Finally on the story element, I just freaking love that they are incorporating Crisis Core stuff in this. First time I saw Tifa's cowgirl getup I was so hype and like "wew, are we gonna get Zack in this game this soon!?!?" and the game surely didn't disappoint.

That particular element wasn't specific to crisis core. She was in a cowboy outfit in all the Nibelheim flashback scenes in the original.

No see, the first time you see her in that outfit in the remake was during a reference to a CC scene that Cloud somehow ends up visualizing, the part where she picks up the muramasa. That's basically straight out of CC.

Dreiko:

dscross:

Dreiko:
Finally on the story element, I just freaking love that they are incorporating Crisis Core stuff in this. First time I saw Tifa's cowgirl getup I was so hype and like "wew, are we gonna get Zack in this game this soon!?!?" and the game surely didn't disappoint.

That particular element wasn't specific to crisis core. She was in a cowboy outfit in all the Nibelheim flashback scenes in the original.

No see, the first time you see her in that outfit in the remake was during a reference to a CC scene that Cloud somehow ends up visualizing, the part where she picks up the muramasa. That's basically straight out of CC.

She picks up the 'Masamune?' (whatever the sword is meant to be called) in the original flashback scene as well. If you mean Sephiroth's sword anyway.

Casual Shinji:
snip

I dunno if I'd call this story or this ending shit. Especially if you really look at what was happening the whole time.

Here is a collection of Aerith quotes that highly suggest she knows the original game's events, much like Sephiroth does. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/g75lfj/quit_acting_like_you_know_me_the_evidence_against/ Give it a read.

Frankly the more I piece together these elements, the more I think the whole set up of this game is fucking brilliant.

CritialGaming:

Casual Shinji:
snip

I dunno if I'd call this story or this ending shit. Especially if you really look at what was happening the whole time.

Here is a collection of Aerith quotes that highly suggest she knows the original game's events, much like Sephiroth does. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/g75lfj/quit_acting_like_you_know_me_the_evidence_against/ Give it a read.

Frankly the more I piece together these elements, the more I think the whole set up of this game is fucking brilliant.

The story is great, the ending is still shit.

And see, I'm fine with certain characters maybe knowing more than they lead on. I mentioned previously that I love the scene between Aerith and Marlene. It's probably my favourite moment in the game. I also really appreciate Cloud's quick flashes to Aerith's fate. It's the game's way of not pretending like we don't know what'll happen to this iconic game character, while also implying that Cloud himself is subconciously aware that he's in a remake. But it's a quick little tease that builds intrigue.

And that's how they should've handled this divergent timeline; subtly. Not with literal destiny ghosts, which turn into a giant destiny heartless that you then have to fight, cuz get it, you're fighting destiny.

I saw someone mention a perfect explaination as to why this ending sucks; The ending makes the story not about the characters and the world they live in, but about it being a story about a story, about being a remake. The ultimate point the game made wasn't to do with any of the characters that we spent the last 40+ hours with, but with subverting fan expectations. It's a 'see what we did there' ending, and those kindly need to die in a fire, because I'm so sick of developers wanting to show off how clever they are at the expense of a proper story/ending.

And this isn't a one-time thing just to tell a different story. This'll be a springboard to hook in hardcore fans to ponder about plot twists and what character will or won't die, about what'll be different from the original plotline. Case in point, fucking Biggs. Seriously, what was the point of that death scene in retrospect? Absolutely nothing. Which applies nicely to the game overall.

It had no point other than subversion.

CritialGaming:

Casual Shinji:
snip

I dunno if I'd call this story or this ending shit. Especially if you really look at what was happening the whole time.

Here is a collection of Aerith quotes that highly suggest she knows the original game's events, much like Sephiroth does. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/g75lfj/quit_acting_like_you_know_me_the_evidence_against/ Give it a read.

Frankly the more I piece together these elements, the more I think the whole set up of this game is fucking brilliant.

Do you think that the idea of 'changing fate' is appropriate thematically in the FF7 world? I always felt the FF7 original and Crisis Core were more about struggling with your identity, living with the consequences of your choices, the effect humans have on the planet to make their lives better, and the extreme lengths people will go to for the sake of power or greed. Seems a bit like it clashes to me and doesn't really fit in? It's almost the complete opposite idea to some of the themes. Not judging particularly, just asking the question to someone who clearly values the original game's story.

Silvanus:

Asita:

Eh...I'd argue that part.

This has been a consistent argument for absolute yonks, and there's a fair amount of evidence either way.

* Hojo states that he initially expected the "Reunion" impulse to draw all those with Jenova cells to the Shinra building, where the largest piece of Jenova's body is stored. He then says it's "all Sephiroth's doing" that the Reunion impulse ended up bringing them to the Northern Crater instead (and thus to Sephiroth, and to Jenova's head).

* In the FF7 Ultimania:

The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

These would certainly seem to confirm that it's Sephiroth drawing the clones (and Cloud) to the Northern Crater, to deliver him the Black Materia.

However, that doesn't quite settle who exactly you're following for most of the game. As I mentioned before, when Cloud catches up to "Sephiroth", "Sephiroth" doesn't even recognise him, much to Cloud's confusion.

It's also stated that Jenova's MO is to mimic people. Not just transformation, but full mimicry, said to pretend to be people's "loved ones". It can't be a coincidence that Sephiroth's goal, to draw the comet to the planet and absorb the lifestream, is almost exactly the same as Jenova's intention during her previous invasion.

So, all in all, I'd say it's explicitly Sephiroth's impulse bringing the Reunion to the Northern Crater, and bringing him the Black Materia. That's his plan. But the person you're chasing is Jenova, and it is Jenova you speak to on the boat. The aims the two of them have are almost identical, and their relationship seems symbiotic (or I'm sure Sephiroth & Hojo would consider it a mother-son relationship).

===

On a side-note, I'd say that it's not a good idea to look to structural arguments to find lore in a FF game. After all, in FFIX, the same line of reasoning would place Necron as the main antagonist.

Granted for the most part (never played FFIX, so I can't independently compare the two). My objection centered on the idea that Jenova was the mastermind, which has never struck me as particularly well supported. To borrow from other franchises, it feels like Jenova was to Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII what the Authority was to Metatron in His Dark Materials, or Nerzul was to Arthas after the events of Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, with the latter feeling particularly on the nose.

Asita:

Granted for the most part (never played FFIX, so I can't independently compare the two). My objection centered on the idea that Jenova was the mastermind, which has never struck me as particularly well supported. To borrow from other franchises, it feels like Jenova was to Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII what the Authority was to Metatron in His Dark Materials, or Nerzul was to Arthas after the events of Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne, with the latter feeling particularly on the nose.

Ah yeah, I can agree there, and I don't think Jenova is the mastermind behind the Reunion/ Black Materia/ Comet plot. I think the two of them are on the same page, because it fits what we know and what we see from both of them.

What I'm a bit worried about is that the Remake will focus exclusively on Sephiroth to the exclusion of Jenova (because Sephiroth is more popular with fans). That's the impression I get from the nonsensical monologues about Cloud and challenging fate and such in the Remake cutscenes. "Sephiroth" was never remotely like that in the original.

Btw, those fate ghosts were in Advent Children, you can see them swarm around the shinra building in the same exact way, so this isn't some new thing this game came up with to be edgy, they just kinda expanded on it some.

Silvanus:

What I'm a bit worried about is that the Remake will focus exclusively on Sephiroth to the exclusion of Jenova (because Sephiroth is more popular with fans). That's the impression I get from the nonsensical monologues about Cloud and challenging fate and such in the Remake cutscenes. "Sephiroth" was never remotely like that in the original.

That's part of the meat behind some of the speculation, really.

Dreiko:
Btw, those fate ghosts were in Advent Children, you can see them swarm around the shinra building in the same exact way, so this isn't some new thing this game came up with to be edgy, they just kinda expanded on it some.

Wasn't Advent Children widely panned? Borrowing plot elements from that movie is like borrowing from Superman 64 to make the next Superman film.

Drathnoxis:

Dreiko:
Btw, those fate ghosts were in Advent Children, you can see them swarm around the shinra building in the same exact way, so this isn't some new thing this game came up with to be edgy, they just kinda expanded on it some.

Wasn't Advent Children widely panned? Borrowing plot elements from that movie is like borrowing from Superman 64 to make the next Superman film.

Never heard anything bad about it actually. I remember loving it to death lol.

Dreiko:

Drathnoxis:

Dreiko:
Btw, those fate ghosts were in Advent Children, you can see them swarm around the shinra building in the same exact way, so this isn't some new thing this game came up with to be edgy, they just kinda expanded on it some.

Wasn't Advent Children widely panned? Borrowing plot elements from that movie is like borrowing from Superman 64 to make the next Superman film.

Never heard anything bad about it actually. I remember loving it to death lol.

Well it got a 33% critical score on Rotten Tomatoes. It looked pretty and had nice fight choreography and music, but that was all it had going for it. The plot and character writing was complete nonsense.

Opinions on this forum about the movie has generally been pretty negative as well.

dscross:

CritialGaming:

Casual Shinji:
snip

I dunno if I'd call this story or this ending shit. Especially if you really look at what was happening the whole time.

Here is a collection of Aerith quotes that highly suggest she knows the original game's events, much like Sephiroth does. https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/g75lfj/quit_acting_like_you_know_me_the_evidence_against/ Give it a read.

Frankly the more I piece together these elements, the more I think the whole set up of this game is fucking brilliant.

Do you think that the idea of 'changing fate' is appropriate thematically in the FF7 world? I always felt the FF7 original and Crisis Core were more about struggling with your identity, living with the consequences of your choices, the effect humans have on the planet to make their lives better, and the extreme lengths people will go to for the sake of power or greed. Seems a bit like it clashes to me and doesn't really fit in? It's almost the complete opposite idea to some of the themes. Not judging particularly, just asking the question to someone who clearly values the original game's story.

Umm...Yes and No. Here's kind of the way I see it.

No it doesn't fit into the world as a whole, though Final Fantasy has almost always dealt with timeline manipulation since the very first game. So while it might no directly fit into what FF7 has specifically set up, it does fit with the grand themes that the series had been playing with since day 1.

The main reason I really agree with what they've done here, is that in my fantasies I always just wanted a 1-to-1 remake of the original game but with voice acting and pretty as fuck graphics. Which is initially what everyone thought they were getting with this game. However what we ended up with is a rather brilliant subversion of expectations that allows for new and old players alike to get really invested in the characters and lore of the FF7 world while also managing to transform the original story in such a way that it becomes new for all players.

Basically what it amounts to, is that they've managed to create a Remake starter game that acts as a retelling and a sequel all at the same time. Which is more incredible the more I got deep into the analytics of the story here.

I get why some people might be upset by it. And that's fine, I think it's narrow minded but whatever I guess. Personally I feel delighted to see what comes next because what I thought was coming, might not be coming, and it's like I've gotten to erase my favorite game of all time from my memory to completely experience it for the first time again.

And themes of the original game can still take place here, just in a different way. The theme of lost and identity now can be presented in the following ways.

1. Cloud now has to deal with separating who he is, versus who Zack is and how to come to terms with the fact that he isn't who or what he believes he is. This remains one track from the original and new story elements only enhance this not detract it.
2. Aerith knows what her fate is, she knows everything that happened in the original and now has to come to terms with what she must do. How will this effect who she is, will she keep the threads of the original on course or will she work for an even better outcome?
3. Barrett doesn't know what to do with himself anyone. He doesn't know who he is or what he must do with himself. Forever he believed that Shinra was the enemy, Shrina was to be blamed for all his problems, now he has learned that isn't the case and there is something even worse out there. He will have to find his identity in fighting a new enemy for the life of the planet which at his core I do believe he thinks that's his calling in life.
4. Tifa has lost everything, her hometown, her new home and bar, most of her friends, and all she has left is Cloud who isn't the guy she remembers. She is so unsure of him, yet so afraid of losing the last thing she has in the world. Cloud is Tifa's lifeline, she loves him because he is all she has left in the world and if she lost him too.....she has nothing. That's why she is the one who saves Cloud at every chance in the original game as well as the Remake. (she dives into Clouds mind to help him remember who he really is in the original game. And in the Remake she saves him from falling like three times.) Tifa is always the one who is there for Cloud.

CritialGaming:
The main reason I really agree with what they've done here, is that in my fantasies I always just wanted a 1-to-1 remake of the original game but with voice acting and pretty as fuck graphics. Which is initially what everyone thought they were getting with this game. However what we ended up with is a rather brilliant subversion of expectations that allows for new and old players alike to get really invested in the characters and lore of the FF7 world while also managing to transform the original story in such a way that it becomes new for all players.

First of all, the game boots new players out at the very end. It's incredibly friendly to people who are new to the franchise for 95% of the game as it takes its time to introduce the characters and the world. But then toward to the end it's like 'well fuck you, you should've played the original'. And it'd be fine if it was a little scene at the end, but we get an almost hour long sequence that states with no uncertainty that this is what everything was all about; subverting the original plotline.

And disregarding how unfriendly that sequence is to new players, it makes everything you experienced previously feel meaningless. Because instead of getting any real emotional closure to the characters and their current journey, we get some climax about fighting destiny itself, when that was not what the game was about at all.

The main plot of the game is Avalance versus Shinra, the people on either side and the ones caught in the middle. That's what the game spends nearly all its time trying to get you invested in. The destiny ghosts show up only occasionally and are then immediately ignored for the main plot. The game actively wants you to know about them, but then quickly is like 'nah, forget about that and just enjoy the actual story'. None of the characters really make a point to actually figure out what the heck is going on with these things, and the story doesn't weave them into the plot at all. They're just there for hardcore fans to geek out over what subversion to the main plot they might bring next.

The subversion isn't part of the story, it's 100% fanservice. That's what the ending was all about, and that's why it's bad.

I dunno. I dont see it that way at all.

Most of the major fans are pissed over the fanservice so does it count as fanservice if the fans didn't want it?

We can agree to disagree here because the plot subversion happens in the original as well. You run around with AVALANCHE fighting Shrina for the first 6 hours of the original game, then you get to the Shrina building and all of a sudden you are global trotting to chase an alien and a super soldier.

The shit plays out the same really. And the only difference at the core is that they had to break up the remake into episodes.

CritialGaming:
I dunno. I dont see it that way at all.

Most of the major fans are pissed over the fanservice so does it count as fanservice if the fans didn't want it?

We can agree to disagree here because the plot subversion happens in the original as well. You run around with AVALANCHE fighting Shrina for the first 6 hours of the original game, then you get to the Shrina building and all of a sudden you are global trotting to chase an alien and a super soldier.

The shit plays out the same really. And the only difference at the core is that they had to break up the remake into episodes.

I'm not sure that type of subversion is comparable tbh. The plot of the OG didn't waiver from its themes, even at that point during the game. They hadn't even introduced Sepiroth at that point - yeah he'd just killed one of the main antagonists but it was done in a mystery sort of way which was to be uncovered, slowly and deliberately over the course of the game and it didn't get in the way of the main plot at all. There were no major sudden major 'endgame' boss fights of anyone we hadn't properly been introduced to yet. Plus, Shinra are still ever-present bad guys in it all the way through anyway, it's just Sepiroth turns out to be the bigger threat.

CritialGaming:
I dunno. I dont see it that way at all.

Most of the major fans are pissed over the fanservice so does it count as fanservice if the fans didn't want it?

Just because fans didn't want it doesn't mean it isn't expressely put there for people who are very familiar with the original game. And it seems pretty evenly split as far as I can tell, maybe even leaning more towards fans overall being positive about it.

We can agree to disagree here because the plot subversion happens in the original as well. You run around with AVALANCHE fighting Shrina for the first 6 hours of the original game, then you get to the Shrina building and all of a sudden you are global trotting to chase an alien and a super soldier.

The shit plays out the same really. And the only difference at the core is that they had to break up the remake into episodes.

Yeah, but not in the space of a couple of minutes though, right? I doubt you instantly run into an alien or whatever when you escape Shinra HQ in the original game.

And I'd be okay with all this fate/destiny crap if it at all reflected on the characters or the plot that we'd been sitting through. It doesn't. It's there for the fans alone, no other reason. And fanservice is fine, but this is the ending. It's supposed to be a culmination of everything that came before; The characters we've met and the situations they've been in. But instead the ending decides to put the full focus on what was a passing interest at best.

The game itself doesn't even seem interested in the destiny ghosts until the final hour, where suddenly it's the most important thing in the bloody universe. They should've left this shit the fuck alone and made an ending that focused on the characters and the new sense of trusts that they established with one another. Which is what would've happened if they'd cut out the dimension hopping and just had them ride their vehicles out of the city where we then see them overlooking Midgar as the continue on. There were enough little moments that were meta and 4th wall breaking to infer something was different now. It didn't need to use a sledgehammer and sacrifice the intergrity of the narrative, and completely ignore the characters just to make sure we got it.

This ending showed that the focus of this game didn't lie on the characters or the story, but on the very concept of it being a remake. Wow, brilliant. 40+ hours down the drain for a 'got ya'. Square must feel soooo smart.

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