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I don't understand... are you trying to sell us a book or is this the political section all of a sudden. | |
I don't understand why some men are practically scared of women. Ugh, saddening, this man. This likely GROWN man, acting this way. | |
Oh god, that video from the article is just disgusting. To think that someone has to be so full of irrational hate to gank the shit ouf of people because they are girls... "Oh yes, I feel so good!" You are a sad boy. I ganked the shit out of people because I wanted to gank. | |
A ganker is a ganker at the end of the day, there's not much difference between him and you, he just picks his targets more carefully. | |
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I'd argue that the difference in motivation is important - even though the victim will never get to know it. In WoW I killed in PvP enabled areas for the sake of PvP. I roamed around and if I saw a player I attacked, irrelevant of my or his level (fun times when I did this with an alt). I had no other reason behind that, I did not target specific players just to ruin their day and I did it not for petty reasons that like in the video. So if a person wanted to get away he/she had a realistic chance of doing so. The only time I wanted to ruin someones day was that fucker who stole my elite trees that I killed. Sadly he was from my faction so I just started doing what he did to me.. | |
The end result is that you killed people who did nothing to deserve it, the motivation is irrelevant because it changes nothing. This is not an RPG, you are not 'role playing'. You are just griefing people. Attempting to dress it up as something else is if anything worse than what people like Shrine are doing. | |
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Cleary the latter is the better guy, obviously. You might be able to convince him than what he is doind is stupid. The former is way harder since he is just mean to everyone. lol. | |
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I said that they are the same, and only that attempting to dress up simple griefing as something else is worse. Whether it sounds worse or not, if the result is the same, the motivations matter very little. A player being corpse-camped is being corpse-camped, doesn't matter if the aggressor is doing it 'for the lulz' or because the player belongs to specific group. | |
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Misdirection. This does not apply to the thing we are discussing. You cannot determine an attacker's motivation in WoW. | |
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Total moron. He SORT of has a point about the Twitch TV thing though. The people who get tons of views are the gamers that are actually good at the games or have great personalities that people want to watch. Sometimes though, I'll see streams with thousands of viewers with a thumbnail of a girl in a tank top with maximum cleavage playing averagely and not even talking. What do you think people are watching for? If there is no amazing gameplay or commentary it can only be one thing. Just read the chat section to see what they're really thinking. I'm not scared of women, I have many female guild members in WoW that can kick my ass but if you're flaunting your boobs for views then I have no respect for you. Do what makes you happy, fine but your 'fans' and your channel can go fade away into mediocrity. | |
I would like to point something out. Anita Sarkeesian wasn't the subject of so much hate because of her suggestion to critically look at gender roles in games. It was because she was (is) a feminazi, someone that actively closes off any and all remotely negative feedback, gets her followers to bully some individuals that gave negative feedback, and scammed thousands of people out of their money with her kickstarter. All under the excuse of a (very) good cause that would rile a lot of people in right away. Don't get me wrong, most of the hate she got was totally wrong and even outright disgusting. But it wasn't because of what she claimed she would be doing. | |
The end result is that I use mechanics laid down in the game on a server where the basic rules state that there is open PvP. I don't pick targets based on arbitary reasons but just because they are in the same area and I want a fight between players. Fun thing though: WoW gives easy options to stop griefing - be it logging on an alt or just using the area to escape. Since I'm not really picky while griefing escaping is a valid option, I won't chase him after I find a new target. In this situation we have a player who picked his target based on a stupid criteria and doesn't back off - goes so far to stalk her (it is basically stalking) and employs all kind of tricks to ruin her day. Also, the victim can easily get the idea behind the gankers motivations. In this case here we have someone who actively prusues her day by day - he is obviously only after her and thus she gets the idea that she is her only target. He is actively out to ruin her day. A ganker / griefer that is easily shaken off is just some bored asshat who wants to provoke people to get others into the area to engage him / is just out to kill some people. Maybe I just view it a little different. If a person starts playing on a PvP server he/she agrees that players can attack her whenever they want and wherever the game allows it. I came from a game where your death meant the loss of all the stuff you had with you, with possible mutilation of your corpse because the PK in question happened to collect left legs. I just assume that people know what they get into when they enter PvP servers and PvP areas.
->femnazi<- *sigh* What a stupid word. Pray tell, how did she scam people? And if she indeed did scam people, where is the outrage from the ones that actually had a stake in this (as in: people who paid for the kickstarter)? Do you really want to imply that regular updates for the backers about her project (that obviously had enough information to keep her backers satisfied) are 'scam'? And no. If we ignore the morons at 4chan (who, in my opinion, make up a big chunk of the gaming community) she got attacked because *gosh* she wanted to tackle a certain subject in video games. That's it. People got overly protective because they somehow assume that calling a certain aspect of a game sexist / bad makes them sexist / bad or that the person is calling them that. It is quite obvious a stupid conclusion but this is the simple reason as to why Anita got the hate she got. Because at the end of the day: Her series is not going to change a thing, especially if her work continues to be on the same quality as it was until now. So why make all the fuzz? | |
This. Also, people seem to automatically assume that you're saying that all girls who play video games are fake or are disingenuous if you point out the relatively small number of people who are being "cam whores". I don't think that all women who play video games are doing it for the attention, I don't think that they are all pretending to enjoy a pastime and I certainly don't want to forcibly remove their "gamer cred" or whatever. That's just ridiculous. But everyone seems to jump down my throat whenever I point this out... let's see how it goes this time! Flame shield activated. | |
I was hoping for a thread about Dune. Son, I am disappoint. Less misleading thread titles can only be a good thing. | |
Great article! Thanks for writing it! You are extra awesome! I think a LOT of Escapist members could learn from this article. The examples given aren't the only examples of horrid behavior towards women in gamer culture - not by a long shot - and they need to end. Thanks for writing this article and posting Ms. Hernandez's article - I've bookmarked both for future reference. Edit: Also - wait, I could make money by streaming my gaming online? Edit 2: Also, I think Mia Rose is my new hero. Edit 4: Note changes above based on clarification later in the thread. | |
As much as I agree that the golden mean fallacy is something to be avoided, both of these extremes (woman-hating shitheads and self-proclaimed 'feminists' with persecution complexes) are deserving of scorn at pretty much equal degrees. I can only hope they all fall into internet obscurity soon. Also, apostrophes apparently cause an error inside of spoiler tags, so I had to extend my contractions. | |
This discourse getting a lot of attention is overall a good thing. Regardless of what methodology you employ examination of your consumption and culture is almost never a negative activity. In this case I think it is incredibly important as there is not a lot of critical theory examining gender dynamics in video games. This lack of discourse ultimately speaks to the lack of artistic recognition most games suffer. However I think it is interesting that any militant and disrespectful reply to these critical investigations only serves to focus the critical gender theorists eye on the gaming culture and gaming artifacts. This is due to the fact that militant responses serve only to expose defensive symptoms of a much larger issue with gender and sexual representations in the larger gaming canon. Ultimately the more critical theory is leveled at video games the closer the medium comes to gaining recognition as an artistic and truly cultural force. | |
Soooo, basically, his attitude boils down to 'girls are icky!'/'No girls allowed'. | |
I think the extent of this anti-women mentality is...well, I hesitate to say blown out of proportion, but it is not the beast a lot of people say it is. The people who are genuinely troll-ish towards girls are a tiny minority, and most of that minority is either attempting to be sexist ironically, or being sexist purely for the sake of trolling ANYONE, not women in particular. Take an actual sample of viewpoints and mentalities of people expressing opinions about games, and its genuinely challenging to find a person who espousing the "Fake geek girl" mentality amidst a sea of people decrying that mentality. Even the monsters of this equation are often times not quite as terrible as they are made out to be. There are DEFINATELY problems with how the community at large treats women, but those problems are not problems that can be solved by burning our flimsiest straw men. They will involve actively demanding a broader variety of games capable addressing issues of gender in more nuanced ways. It will involve actively dissecting common practices of how games are presented, and developers recognizing problems that they had no intentions of including. It will involve taking risks to add content to games that is not proven to make money, and representing women in a way that currently exists as little more then the rare exception. Imagine a world where if every year, if 100 games are released, if just 5 of them had a Alyx Vance, or Jade, Action Reporter? Or a game that sold sexy males as blatantly as others sell sexy women, and asks that I accept THAT as just part of the price for admission to a gaming experience. I think that you really hit on a great point with how the community is afraid of loseing legitimacy. The whole culture is afraid of the rise of the casual, of the dumbing down of games, of the obsession with graphics, and many have a glimmer of hope in games elevating itself to where it is seen as just as legitimate, is not BETTER, then movies, books, music or the like. Girls represent this threat in a small way (Through a perception of the rise of the casual gamer), but in a much larger way, the fear is that if games are sexist, then suddenly, they are just defective toys. And that's wrong. Games can have plenty of problems and be legitimate. Just because it does something wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't do many other things right.we may not live in an age where people are very positive on self-criticism, but in the long run, it is better to be self-critical. Its better to acknowledge that a bunch of games can represent something sexist, and it doen't mean you have to stop likeing those game. It just means that there are even better games possible if we think around that sexism. | |
Women playing video games? Unacceptable! They should be in the kitchen making my dinner and washing and ironing my clothes. That is of course if she is not busy giving birth to my son in the kitchen while making my dinner and washing and ironing my clothes. Uppity women, what gives them the right to do the same things as us men folk...next they'll want careers and the vote. Not on my watch, not on my watch. | |
I think to some extent you may be right based on the fact that the Tropes vs. Women Kickstarter absolutely shattered its fundraising goal. However, it is important to examine such things anyway given that just because an anti-woman mentality is not overt does not mean that is does not exist. But you do raise a fair objection to the backlash towards the overt anti-women gamers. | |
To be fair, that's a flawed example. Ganking is an intended course of action. A better example would be to say that you're walking down an alley alone and someone coming towards you bumps into you because causing you grief will make him happier. A few moments later, a second person does the exact same thing but because you have blonde hair and that person just loathes people with blonde hair and wants to make their lives miserable. Both actions cause the aggressor to feel better and the victim to feel worse. Is there really a point to saying one is more acceptable than the other? Both cause the victim to be grieved and both are only for the personal gain of the aggressor. Both are equally bad, though arguably more so aggressor #1 because his act is just evil for the sake of evil, where as aggressor #2 at least has grounds for a discussion as the grief is identifiable. OT: This article seemed promising but made me sad at the end. First and foremost, I'm not sure why questioning the credentials of someone is a bad thing. Isn't that what we're supposed to do before taking in the full breadth of a study? I mean, I could construct a study of equal worth this evening about how women are inferior gamers to men and get it published if credentials weren't a factor. I think it's a good thing that people are curious about the source of what they're about to ingest to see if it's the real deal or just another trash study done to skew the hearts and minds of people in this on going flame war. The second, and worst, part of the article is the ending. While it doesn't completely discredit what's been said, it certainly changes the entire perspective of the article. Treating Shrine like a five year-old child is just petty and only goes to prove that the author is no better than Shrine himself. I know it's meant to be taken with a grain of salt but it's disgusting that for the entire article you praise the higher road and then stoop down to the sub-basement of mockery at the end to get that one last kidney shot in. In short, the article wraps up by mimicking the types of behaviours it spent debasing which then creates a paradox of hypocrisy. In the end, everyone needs someone like Shrine. If people like him never existed, we'd never question our philosophies or affirm them as correct. Opposition is a driving force in our day to day lives and having a misogynist or two floating around will drive that many more women to achieve great things because someone simply said they couldn't. Creating articles like these, to me, is just another argument of "why doesn't everyone like me?" People are going to hate you just for being you but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. If the women of the internet are confident they will be a driving force in the future without having to have these lone champions carving a path through all the men that are uncomfortable with them roaming about and making Chuck Norris jokes in The Barrens of Azeroth. I think Miss Ardent put it best when talking about women in the video games industry being prevalent when she said the best thing any women in the business can do is simply do her job to the best of her abilities and people will notice how great they are and I believe that to be true. Dramatic theatrics only serves to rile the forces within to reenact the deplorable behaviour you aim to avoid instead of simply being present and proving you're here to stay simply by playing by (most of) the same rules. | |
Ok, stop. But to say that everyone who questions her abilities as an academic are all just doing it out of fear and loathing because "She mite take mah videagaems away!" is akin to thinking anyone who kills a cockroach is doing it because they're evil nasty snake sympathizers. As in, Not true in any sense. And how's that for an irony - The article mentions, among other things, how:
And then actively goes on to poison an attempt to discuss Sarkeesian by dismissing the other point of view as all based on fear. | |
And I did go into that in my post. It is a very important topic to discuss, especially because though the majority of us jump on the opportunity to bash the truly vile sexists in our ranks, all we are doing is burning straw men. There are problems with the way that girls are treated in games, and the subtle problems are much more problematic then the, "Get back in the kitchen" jokes. Gamers as a culture are going through this sort of identity crisis as more and more mainstream players filter in, and as genres and design philosophies grow and vary. As a result, a lot of the attempts to retain an identity become arbitrary and unnecessary, and a lot of people don't even realize that they are imposing these gates more harshly on women. It doesn't help that the old mantra of, "Sex sells" can make it difficult to distinguish between a girl gamer who happens to be attractive and a cynical marketing ploy by an industry that itself ignores the female demographic. | |
I loved that novel as a kid, and it's one of my favorite works of science-fiction. That being said, and this is just some friendly criticism. Don't use that quote. Scrap it. Unless you are going for irony. | |
DIRECTED TOWARDS THE GANKER [in the link]: So you say Fuck you Fuck you Do you get Do you Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, You say, you think we need to go to war Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you | |
I think you are spot on with your post and it is very important to bring up how blurry these issues can get when talking about these sorts of issues. Especially when we start to cross the lines between the actual game content and the real people working as booth babes regardless of whether or not their involvement in gaming culture is authentic. I think it is going to be very interesting to see how these sorts of criticisms and discourses develop as the gaming community becomes more and more splintered. Only time will tell if the 'hardcore' gaming community will be able to relinquish the sort of Sartrean bad-faith that comes from 'retaining an identity' as you put it. | |
Horde can't communicate with Alliance so no, you cannot determine an attacker's motivation in WoW.
Yeah I also thought it was a pointless mis-use of the phrase.
Logging onto an alt or leaving the area are not options when you are trying to quest in a particular area. Escaping is not very easy when you are outnumbered or outgunned (enemy has better gear than you, or is just a better player), and 9/10 griefers attack targets only when one of these is true. They aren't interested in fair fights, and in any case the element of surprise is usually enough to win most 'fair' fights. As for stalking: many griefers corpse-camp or hunt targets based on arbitrary reasoning, this isn't something that solely happens with people like Shrine. Victims cannot easily determine gankers' intentions. Zero communication beyond emotes which are usually just used to /spit or /lol on corpses, which are hardly methods of expressive communication. I agree that PvP players should expect to get ganked at any second where they are in contested territory or even in friendly. I am not saying otherwise. What I am saying is don't dress up your griefing as anything other than griefing. It's not you role-playing, it's not you 'just playing by the rules'. You are making a decision to attack an enemy that has not attacked you, by surprise usually, with the goal being to kill them. Be honest about what you do. | |
Yeah, THIS IS THE EXACT REASON I AM ASHAMED TO TELL PEOPLE THAT I PLAY VIDEOGAMES AND WANT TO GIVE THEM UP ALTOGETHER!! Sorry for the caps, but I just had to get that out of my system. This is the single most disgusting gaming-related news I've seen all year. ARGH, I feel like kicking that little fucker's teeth down his throat right now. I cannot for the life of me think how a sane person can adapt such a vile mentality. My guess is that the guy's crush didn't want to go to prom with him and then he thought "Hurr all wimmen urrr eivull hurr durr". Fuck that fucking fucker. | |
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