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TheKasp:
->femnazi<- *sigh* What a stupid word.

Pray tell, how did she scam people? And if she indeed did scam people, where is the outrage from the ones that actually had a stake in this (as in: people who paid for the kickstarter)? Do you really want to imply that regular updates for the backers about her project (that obviously had enough information to keep her backers satisfied) are 'scam'?

And no. If we ignore the morons at 4chan (who, in my opinion, make up a big chunk of the gaming community) she got attacked because *gosh* she wanted to tackle a certain subject in video games. That's it. People got overly protective because they somehow assume that calling a certain aspect of a game sexist / bad makes them sexist / bad or that the person is calling them that. It is quite obvious a stupid conclusion but this is the simple reason as to why Anita got the hate she got.

Because at the end of the day: Her series is not going to change a thing, especially if her work continues to be on the same quality as it was until now. So why make all the fuzz?

It sounds like you haven't read a threat a while ago. Even her backers are restless. But they keep quiet for fear of being thrown out of the 'regular' updates and such. The 'regular' updates were mostly her doing interviews and going to meetings, with only a 'still working on it' about the actual project. One guy voiced concerns in an e-mail to her, and she bashed him for it. Another guy posted his concerns on a more public forum, and was banned from the updates list entirely for it.

And your last point is exactly what I mean. She has a web series that costs her barely anything. Heck, it probably costs her nothing but the camera she uses. Yet she suddenly needs money from kickstarter to do a documentary of some kind? There is no indication whatsoever that it will be of any higher quality than her youtube video's. Furthermore, did you see the photo of the games she bought? There were quite a few in there that had nothing to do with gender roles at all. Plus, she mysteriously suddenly had the money to buy an expensive new car after her kickstarter ended. That's why I call her a scammer.

I have removed my words from this site.

DeadpanLunatic:

Yosharian:

Horde can't communicate with Alliance so no, you cannot determine an attacker's motivation in WoW.

Oh I'm sure this is the kind of thing there are no mods or workarounds for.

Uh... no, there aren't. Have you even played this game?

I have removed my words from this site.

Yosharian:

What I am saying is don't dress up your griefing as anything other than griefing. It's not you role-playing, it's not you 'just playing by the rules'. You are making a decision to attack an enemy that has not attacked you, by surprise usually, with the goal being to kill them. Be honest about what you do.

Well, I don't try to dress is as anything different, I just say that there is a difference in motivation and that this is quite important if you want to validate the person who ganks. I don't want to make up ganking as a honorable act, I'm sure as fuck that those 80 people whose raids we delayed by nearly 2 hours were more than just pissed (but it was a blast of a guildevent, afterwards those raidgroups started to set out as a whole group), I'm still wondering why it took them 2h to realise that the best course of action would come out as the whole group and kick our asses into oblivion...

I just remember too many fun times that resulted from ganking - be it when friends of mine were ganked and I came to help (the ganker and myself started dueling for hours to come and met once a week in front of a city to duke it out fair and square) or when I took control of a bridge in a major city of the other faction. Oh what time it was having five enraged people running after my soddy undead ass *sigh*.

But I'd still argue that the motivation can be somewhat determined. Like I said, the persistancy of pursuit, the amount of negative emotes (I restrained to a single /lol if I wasn't the aggressor) and if he goes after you for several days, knowing exactly where you are.

Lets put it this way: I, as a ganker whose deeds in WoW were rather tame compared to previous games, am disgusted by the comments and notions made in this video as well as the motivations layed down to stalk and gank one particular player. My reasons were basically boredom, his are hate and argueably bigotry.

sanquin:

It sounds like you haven't read a threat a while ago. Even her backers are restless. But they keep quiet for fear of being thrown out of the 'regular' updates and such. The 'regular' updates were mostly her doing interviews and going to meetings, with only a 'still working on it' about the actual project. One guy voiced concerns in an e-mail to her, and she bashed him for it. Another guy posted his concerns on a more public forum, and was banned from the updates list entirely for it.

I read every thread about her on this site.

And all I can say: Please provide sources. And not 4chan picture bullshit.

And your last point is exactly what I mean. She has a web series that costs her barely anything. Heck, it probably costs her nothing but the camera she uses. Yet she suddenly needs money from kickstarter to do a documentary of some kind? There is no indication whatsoever that it will be of any higher quality than her youtube video's. Furthermore, did you see the photo of the games she bought? There were quite a few in there that had nothing to do with gender roles at all. Plus, she mysteriously suddenly had the money to buy an expensive new car after her kickstarter ended. That's why I call her a scammer.

So you have no clue what her december update was about. I am tired of laying down in each thread that 'shock' creating content of any kind costs time and money and that asking for 6k is not even close to unreasonable if we don't forget that she doesn't monetize her videos (unlike other Yt content creators). Those videos being on Youtube or the internet is not even close to being an argument. Belive it or not: A series being created for the internet is not free of costs.

I have removed my words from this site.

Wow, way to absolutely butcher dune...

So he goes around twitch bombing streams of attractive girls who gather views by being cute instead of playing*, a bit puerile but so are the girls he's not entirely wrong in his assessment. Funnily enough his description of how to find a girl playing matches my girlfriend's wow habits to perfection other than the "too whiny to go into real raiding so they have to do old dungeons" and the fact she doesn't stream or anything. After watching the entire video it actually comes across as comedy/trolling he cannot have a high level character on every server to be tracking down random players on different realms even with x-faction funny that everyone seems to believe he's for real.

*I mean, you can't tell me you take stuff like this http://www.twitch.tv/tarababcock seriously, this is not about the games. Not all of them are like this one but others do exist.

DeadpanLunatic:

Yosharian:

Uh... no, there aren't. Have you even played this game?

Honestly, no, but I did proceed to present a workaround. But go right on ignoring whatever points you can't respond to.

He's right, there's no way to communicate with the enemy faction unless you're logged on the enemy faction itself which is probably what he's doing anyway,

did it ever occur to you that bearing the kind of mark our community finds worth harassing might have you ganked more regularly than mere happenstance? That this probably happens frequently enough for people to discern that something about them attracts this unwanted attention?

Whoever you are you're going to be ganked numerous times, as many as yours and the ganker's skill/boredom allows in fact, in a pvp server. The easy solution is going to a pve server, otherwise don't complain. Furthermore it's an ungodly amount of work to track someone and you need to have a high level character in the same server too.

knight steel:
[snip]

heh, just listened to that this morning because I remembered it from some time ago and explicitly searched for it...

also yeah, that man is sickening to a very high degree of purity.

Urgh, so an antisocial troll on the internet is mean to girls? Well boo-hoo.

I'm sorry, but this is not evidence for a "rampant sexism", saying it like that turns it into useless hyperbole that in no way helps anyone. Sure there's a lot of these weird creeps out there, but what do you expect+ there's millions upon millions of gamer around the world, some of them are going to be antisocial pricks, that's just how it is.

So the article is badly written hyperbole of the same useless crap we've seen a million times over, and what is there to discuss, that sexism is driven by fear? The article provides no reason for this to be the case, it just says "Oh feeeaarrrrrr, it drrrrove the mighty sexist horrrdes to strrrike down upon these purrre-hearrrted frrrredom fighterrrrs." It provides no reason why inexperience might as well be the case (it's usually the fear of the unknown that's the cause of sexism, racism, homophobia and all that).

DeadpanLunatic:
One woman wants to explore whether games might be sexist and our community jumps to attention to prove that they damn sure are.

Interesting read, I liked it and for the most part agree with you. The only nitpick I've got is the part I've quoted above - the reaction to Tropes vs Women has done nothing to prove that games are sexist, it has just proved that some gamers are sexist.

Of course, that could be what you meant, but the syntax you've used is a tricksy little hobbit.

On the whole, good job. Have a high five.

TheKasp:
I came from a game where your death meant the loss of all the stuff you had with you, with possible mutilation of your corpse because the PK in question happened to collect left legs. I just assume that people know what they get into when they enter PvP servers and PvP areas.

You're a not a Discworld MUD player by any chance?

I've heard the same argument over there a million times, between the "I went PK to roleplay!" guys and the "I went PK to murderfuck your face!" guys. Always a fun debate, if by fun you mean circular and likely to devolve into people getting backstabbed.

Bara_no_Hime:
Edit: Also - wait, I could make money by streaming my gaming online?

Depends. Are you hot and willing to show off your tits? If so, you can probably make more money doing other stuff online :-P

SonicWaffle:

TheKasp:
I came from a game where your death meant the loss of all the stuff you had with you, with possible mutilation of your corpse because the PK in question happened to collect left legs. I just assume that people know what they get into when they enter PvP servers and PvP areas.

You're a not a Discworld MUD player by any chance?

I've heard the same argument over there a million times, between the "I went PK to roleplay!" guys and the "I went PK to murderfuck your face!" guys. Always a fun debate, if by fun you mean circular and likely to devolve into people getting backstabbed.

Ultima Online. Always fun to camp in fron of a house invisible just to rob it empty when the owner didn't check for ivnsible asshats.

I did mostly PK to kill boredom. PvP was the single most interesting aspect and raiding was just means to get the gear (because it was less time intensive than grinding up to rank 10).

TheKasp:

SonicWaffle:

TheKasp:
I came from a game where your death meant the loss of all the stuff you had with you, with possible mutilation of your corpse because the PK in question happened to collect left legs. I just assume that people know what they get into when they enter PvP servers and PvP areas.

You're a not a Discworld MUD player by any chance?

I've heard the same argument over there a million times, between the "I went PK to roleplay!" guys and the "I went PK to murderfuck your face!" guys. Always a fun debate, if by fun you mean circular and likely to devolve into people getting backstabbed.

Ultima Online. Always fun to camp in fron of a house invisible just to rob it empty when the owner didn't check for ivnsible asshats.

I did mostly PK to kill boredom. PvP was the single most interesting aspect and raiding was just means to get the gear (because it was less time intensive than grinding up to rank 10).

Unfortunately, in the MUD I was thinking of, it's being forever worn down to avoid upsetting people. It's still possible to break into houses, but no longer possible to steal anything. Taking anything from a player's corpse automatically sets off all wards (basically booby traps) even if the looter has the skill to avoid them. There was even a plan to alter theft so that when a player stole an item from another player, it didn't take the actual item, just created a clone of the item so that nobody had to lose their stuff.

When the hell did we get to the point that online multiplayer environments in which people voluntarily sign up for danger have been placed under the control of Barney the Dinosaur?

SonicWaffle:

When the hell did we get to the point that online multiplayer environments in which people voluntarily sign up for danger have been placed under the control of Barney the Dinosaur?

I'm with you. I realised that WoW is nothing for me when someone started berating me for PvP in a PvP area which you could only enter if you reached maximum level and that was classified as an open PvP area with events based around it (Tol Barad).

I just roamed around and killed everyone on sight, he was one unlucky bastard to cross my path 3 or 4 times, I didn't even realise that. Then he started talking how people would start hunting me down and I won't have any fun on the server anymore. He couldn't grasp the possibility that I wanted that to happen because the situation I was in could not be classified as fun in any way (the situation where PvP was only accepted in battlegrounds on a friggin PvP server). For fucks sake, I was in the one guild that throughout WoW was known for camping raid entrances and attacking cities to provoke open PvP. During the end of Burning Crusade I was among the most hunted players (there were several people that had me on 'Kill on sight', a lot of fun times resulted out of that).

This was literally the day where I stopped and realised that even with my delicate 21y back then I was from another time and not really welcome in the modern MMO(RPG)s. I moved to TF2 and never looked back (though I miss the fun I had with my warlock Kaspar - the namesake of my nickname).

DeadpanLunatic:
Between the fake nerd girl craze

It was not a craze, most people hardly even knew of it, take a look on google trends, people only started to even find out what it was when the media began to cover (and inevitably, sensationalise) it.

DeadpanLunatic:
and killer nuns in bondage gear

Is the sexualisation of characters inherently sexist? As far as I'm aware the debate still goes on.

DeadpanLunatic:
the Anita Sarkeesians

Happened almost a year ago (so hardly a recent example), not as cut and dried as many would like to make out.

DeadpanLunatic:
and the Jennifer Heplers,

Criticising a woman is not inherently sexist. Acting in a vindictive manner is not the same as being sexist.
In any case I believe it was Hepler that brought gender into the debate herself with the quote ""I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either."

DeadpanLunatic:
Shrine's somewhat successful attempts to rally his fellow men to harass female gamers are sadly just one of many, many examples of the rampant sexism that haunts our medium, and far from the most important.

Bullshit, there's no more sexism in the video game industry/community than there is in the televison, film or literature industries/communities.
Let's stop all this sensationalist bullshit.

DeadpanLunatic:
I am talking, of course, about Anita Sarkeesian. Yes, her. Again. I can hear you groan, but let's not forget the sheer amount of hate and abuse she faced for daring to suggest a critical examination of gender roles in videogames.

You mean for daring to crusade against video games under the guise of feminism.

DeadpanLunatic:
Things have slowed down since the end of Sarkeesian's Kickstarter campaign, but gamers remain doubtful. People have gone on to question her credentials, wondering whether she's a real gamer or a real academic - next you'll tell me you're not even convinced she's a real person.

How dare people exercise skepticism, next they'll be refuting the existence of god.

DeadpanLunatic:
On the other end of the spectrum, she is being reproached for having yet to revolutionize our discourse of gender and gaming. I resent that. I resent that because, while masquerading as valid concerns, these arguments are intended to cut the discussion short, to discredit Sarkeesian without having to hear her out. How about we discuss her arguments based on content, based on merit?

Her previous arguments have had very little content and very little merit. Pointing out the low standards of her previous work is entirely relevant.

It's like when the MMR vaccine hoax came about, yeah we could have said "well Andrew Wakefield has a number of conflicts of interest and is putting thousands of children in danger by telling lies under the guise of scientific research. But he still might stumble across something that's actually correct so let's let him continue."
However we all realised it was best to prevent the blind willfully blinding the sighted.

The same applies here, in a much less important way.

Damn, someone grabbed a hold of a sexist gamer YouTube crusader out there and used it as a springboard for backing Anita. It kills me that Anita supporters claim to be more open minded and yet can't seem to understand the logic behind her detractors. I am posting in this thread because of one phrase in the OP:

One woman wants to explore whether games might be sexist and our community jumps to attention to prove that they damn sure are.

No, that proves sexist people exist and I am beginning to think that trying to have a discussion with anyone who believes such a statement is pointless because they are only seeing what they want to see. Those threats mean jack squat towards her point other than there is a level of immaturity that exists amongst the huge demographic crowd that includes men, women, teens, elderly, etc. The fact that her project got so much attention on the internet only proves that trolls are bound to show up, not that she is right by default. That's illogical thinking and is actually just as based in prejudice as the statements made by the trolls.

While I am here typing crap, I have a related note. If you think she got the hate because people were afraid she could somehow take away our video games, you're not good at guessing motives at all. Back in 08-09 Game Informer did an article on some chick that played games and how guys acted as if that was a rarity and some stuff... it was a good article, I don't remember the details though. I do remember that it was the issue when Alpha Protocol was announced and was the cover story. Anyways, since then I noticed a movement happen in the games industry about women in gaming as it was just getting started real heavy leading us to today. Somewhere along the way, Feminist Frequency started popping up on message boards and I checked them out. I honestly thought in my mind "Ugh, this chick won't be around long. She is TERRIBLE at making a strong, or valid for that matter, argument." She slid back into obscurity of course for a couple years with somewhere around like 35,000 followers on the entire internet even with free advertising for a while. She was not met well early on as people judged her arguments on their actual merit.
I saw her pop up a few times later down the road, usually as a joke, got a chuckle and moved on. Understand, I am all for games broadening out and giving us some diversity but unlike (what I assume is many, due to this fiasco) others, I know what it will probably take to get us there. First, it is not a "movement", but rather social acceptance of the medium and we are close with the wide amount of people now partaking in the hobby. Elderly people now buy systems and play games. Maybe not like those who register here, but they do. Many people stepped into gaming this past generation with the Wii and phone apps working as a stepping stool. We're already on the way, we just need a bit more time - not a movement. I swear this new generation thinks everything needs a movement, I sometimes think they idolize hippies and civil rights activists.
Anita is merely something for them to attach to a movement though and unfortunately, she has decided games are sexist before even making the videos. The videos are not about whether games are sexist or not, it is about HOW THEY ARE sexist. EDIT: Actually, its not even about that, they are about faux pas committed by game X or Y. "Tropes vs. Women" and her previous Tropes vs. Women series was already a disaster due to her shoehorning in any glimpse of sexism she could find no matter how much it required skewing the source material. The idea of a video series actually looking into the culture of gaming from the perspective of women is a good idea... hell, a great idea. A video series looking at sexist tropes in games is a worthless idea. Having Anita Sarkeesian make the videos is a fucking terrible idea.

No one is afraid they will take away our games in regards to Anita, they are afraid she is gonna spread a lot of stupid into the world for no reason. Look at how many people are already pointing at her in agreement going "Yup" and she hasn't even made a statement yet. She got trolled and people said "She's right!" As for the WoW guy, yeah he is retarded that's why he makes a good springboard to use as "proof" Anita is right. Which is about as logical as crucifying Anita for something her fans did or said and how many times have you guys jumped down the throats of a detractor for doing that? It's an OK tactic so long as its your side doing it, I guess is the mentality being used in the article.

I have removed my words from this site.

Failing thread is failing due to Dune reference in title and then NO DUNE!

op, Not a bad article at all. An enjoyable well-balanced read I felt.

Yer man sounds like a terrible woman-fearing douche tho.

Well deserving of a good slap.

FEAR IS THE LITTLE-DEATH THAT BRINGS TOTAL OBLITERATION.

Yes, the only reason I posted was because I noticed the title.
Now I feel stupid for remembering the Litany against Fear, because it is dumb.

Also, guy in question is skumbag and can go choke on a chode. But that's obvious.

DeadpanLunatic:

Oh, sure. I suppose targeting her as "the cancer killing BioWare" while blaming her for things she was absolutely not involved in (like, of course, the ME3 ending) had nothing to do at all with her gender. No no.

I could respond to the rest of your comment, and would had I not been completly baffled by this.

Seriously, what? What??! What kind of logic is that? "Oh noes, people are critising her writing skills, must be because she's a lady, HERPDERP".

In fact, I think that you haven't experienced hyperbole before (even though you yourself use it very often in this thread), yes, people critising her of things she haven't even been part in, you wanna know a secret? That's not because she is a woman. Yeahc, shocking, isn't it? But really, the same thing happends to Mac Walters (a lot more often accused of ruining Bioware), Obama (accused of ruining everything) and several other non-women. Some people don't like her, so they make her out to be the anti-christ, that happends to basically every person some people don't like.

Furthermore, that's one hell of an assumption. A writer makes a controversial comment, lot's of anonymous people and the internet jumps on her because they're really worried about the future of their games, because the the atitude of the writer, and obviously they didn't jump on her because she made a controversial statement, they jump on her because she's a lady (?).

See what you did there? That's called jumping to a conclusion, a very far-fetched one. And that's normally not very good.

TheKasp:

SonicWaffle:

When the hell did we get to the point that online multiplayer environments in which people voluntarily sign up for danger have been placed under the control of Barney the Dinosaur?

I'm with you. I realised that WoW is nothing for me when someone started berating me for PvP in a PvP area which you could only enter if you reached maximum level and that was classified as an open PvP area with events based around it (Tol Barad).

I just roamed around and killed everyone on sight, he was one unlucky bastard to cross my path 3 or 4 times, I didn't even realise that. Then he started talking how people would start hunting me down and I won't have any fun on the server anymore. He couldn't grasp the possibility that I wanted that to happen because the situation I was in could not be classified as fun in any way (the situation where PvP was only accepted in battlegrounds on a friggin PvP server). For fucks sake, I was in the one guild that throughout WoW was known for camping raid entrances and attacking cities to provoke open PvP. During the end of Burning Crusade I was among the most hunted players (there were several people that had me on 'Kill on sight', a lot of fun times resulted out of that).

This was literally the day where I stopped and realised that even with my delicate 21y back then I was from another time and not really welcome in the modern MMO(RPG)s. I moved to TF2 and never looked back (though I miss the fun I had with my warlock Kaspar - the namesake of my nickname).

I actually hate PvP. I dislike losing my stuff, I dislike losing my invested time (assuming I've been earning XP and then been killed before I could spend it), I dislike the grudges and the petty bitching and the people with a kill-on-sight list and the people with a kill-everyone-upon-login mentality. It interferes with my game, and I get negligible benefit from it because while I do enjoy stealing from other players I don't like the combat aspect, or the fear of being randomly attacked whilst going about my business.

My simple solution to this was to start a new character, and not to go PK. Just because I hate it and can find absolutely no fun in it doesn't mean the concept doesn't have merit for people other than myself. The root of the current dumbing-down problem seems to be people who can't accept that, and who want to entire concept of PK/PvP toned down so that they can play it their way.

I have removed my words from this site.

DeadpanLunatic:
Fair point, the response of "oh please, don't look into this" does not bode well for what a critical examination might find, but it is a different matter. Who knows, maybe people were freaking out over nothing and games will actually be acquitted of having problematic content. Seems unlikely, but still.

I'm not quite sure that's what the response was indicating. It seemed to me that people weren't so much worried that Sarkeesian was going to uncover some X-Files-style conspiracy in the world of game development that endeavoured to keep the wimminfolk in the kitchen, but that they were more angered by the suggestion that video gaming is inherently sexist. There are probably a lot of gamers who took offence to that, because the (bad) logic at play is that if you love something inherently sexist then you are probably sexist.

A lot of the commentary surrounding The Anita Affair gave the impression that people felt personally slighted by her, amidst all the rants from anti-feminists and other assorted lunatics. Video games are bad, and you are a bad person for liking them, if you see what I mean.

DeadpanLunatic:
Yay, free high-fives.

You say that as if people usually charge :-P

DeadpanLunatic:
Oh, sure. I suppose targeting her as "the cancer killing BioWare" while blaming her for things she was absolutely not involved in (like, of course, the ME3 ending) had nothing to do at all with her gender. No no.

I realise I'm now getting mixed into a part of your post that was directed at someone else, but still; I think you're off-base with this part. Was Hepler's gender a factor in the hatred she received? Undoubtedly. I'm not so sure it was a major part, though. It was more about making her a scapegoat and attacking her on the basis of general anger with BioWare after her comments got her noticed.

I'm not naive enough to say gender didn't play its part, but the fact that sexist epithets were levelled against her and that assuredly some of her detractors were largely attacking her for posessiong of a vagina doesn't mean it was an event entirely driven by sexism.

I have removed my words from this site.

DeadpanLunatic:

DugMachine:

I'm not scared of women, I have many female guild members in WoW that can kick my ass but if you're flaunting your boobs for views then I have no respect for you.

The issue with that line of reasoning is that it tends to place the impetus on women to cover themselves and hide rather than men to simply not perv out and drool over the slightest chance to maybe see some cleavage. It's the same basic assumption of men being entirely unable to control their urges that (following one hell of a slippery slope far enough) leads to things like defending rape with provocative clothing. I mean she was there, and looking all sexy. What was he supposed to do, not rape her?

Oh I agree. The fault ultimately falls with guys who can't control their urges and want to fuck everything with a pulse. But, my point was that there are in fact women out there who do abuse their good looks for views. They don't need to cover up. Hell, if you want to stream completely naked go for it but when they have thousands of viewers, I won't be surprised is all I'm saying.

DeadpanLunatic:

SonicWaffle:

You say that as if people usually charge :-P

They sure charge me.

Have you tried washing your hands occasionally?

DeadpanLunatic:
Oh there's certainly more at work there especially considering the outrage mostly concerned her not even playing games ( like that's integral to a writer's job) but then I am battling the assertion that it was an entirely neutral affair until she decided to bring gender into things here.

Well, for one I think a games writer does have a responsibilty to play games, because it's an entirely different narrative medium and one they should at least be familiar with. They don't have to be hardcore addicts who play games all day every day, but they should at least make the effort to play a few games a year and keep their hand in. Someone who exclusively writes for video games couldn't just write a play without actually watching one, and vice versa, so I think a basic familiarity with the medium and the way it tells stories is a must.

Secondly, she didn't actually say she doesn't play video games, just that she doesn't enjoy those parts which are not storyline related. Fair enough, though it does give me cause to wonder what she's doing in the industry rather than trying to work elsewhere.

Thirdly, I don't think that's the assertion at all. Given that five-year-old comments were dredged up and posted along with a torrent of abuse, it certainly didn't start from a neutral position. It started from a vehemently anti-BioWare position, she was attached to BioWare, ergo it was hardly neutral. The fact that she was chosen as the scapegoat rather than someone else smacks of underlying sexism, but I still think sexism was a distant second position to hatred of her company and position coupled with the anger roused by her comments.

Dimitriov:
I was hoping for a thread about Dune. Son, I am disappoint.

Less misleading thread titles can only be a good thing.

I thought this thread was going to be about Rez. Getting over the disappointment.

Sounds like this Shrine character has either never been laid or married to a total harpy; either way, he's taking it out on the wrong people and if he stays in that mindset his future will either be spent in continuing virginity or with an equally abusive harpy. I didn't realize anyone was feeling threatened by girl gamers. I didn't realize it was a thing. Girls have been gaming for as long as games have been around; shit, in ancient times it was one of the only things they were allowed to do. Why is it an issue now? I realize they're small, petty, pathetic boys, but they have to have some sort of reason, or is it really just the childish notion of putting a "no girls allowed" sign on the clubhouse.

DugMachine:
Oh I agree. The fault ultimately falls with guys who can't control their urges and want to fuck everything with a pulse.

I'm not picky, pulse is optional.

DugMachine:
But, my point was that there are in fact women out there who do abuse their good looks for views. They don't need to cover up. Hell, if you want to stream completely naked go for it but when they have thousands of viewers, I won't be surprised is all I'm saying.

There's no real problem with abusing your good looks to get views. Work with what you've got, and if you're reduced to using your looks to get attention then maybe you haven't got a whole lot else to work with. It only becomes a problem if you (or someone else) then cries sexism. I'm not sure how it's sexist when you're aware that men like to look at hot women in various stages of undress, you have offered them that, and they've taken you up on the offer. If you voluntarily became a sex object, you don't really have a right to complain that people are viewing you as a sex object. It's like giving free cake to fat people and then calling them disgusting pigs because they ate it.

BurnedOutMyEyes:
FEAR IS THE LITTLE-DEATH THAT BRINGS TOTAL OBLITERATION.

Isn't "the little death" what the French call an orgasm, or am I mis-remembering something? I don't know about you, but I generally don't orgasm out of fear.

It requires at least one chipmunk and a heavy-duty industrial shredder.

Trolls showing up is not simplistic, the nature of her assertion was so simplistic and broad stroked that trolls were bound to show up. Go start a kickstarer and say "Books are sexist" or "Movies are racist" or "Music is homophobic" and see if trolls don't pop out. This is a no brainer.

And what of that? What of showing that some of the things games do are problematic? Is that not an argument, simply because, oh, that's what she must have thought from the start? I find the "She's not approaching this objectively!" complaint perfectly irrelevant, honestly. Of course she's approaching games from her background in feminism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Has she already decided that games are sexist? Possibly, but do you think it takes more than a passing glance at the industry that produces Gears of War, Army of Two and Call of Duty to see that maybe things are slightly off over here?

Hehe, "possibly"... that's funny. Her kickstarter video basically starts out with "Have you ever noticed how games are sexist towards women?" Paraphrasing, of course. You still arent grasping what I am saying. Objectivity isn't even the point I made in that post although, it is a valid claim. I am saying the faux pas she is pointing out are like the ABCs of tropes. This is not new information thus worthless idea to spend all that time and money on. Who seriously needs 2 episodes on Damsel in Distress? Even if it is being looked at objectively? It's elementary crap that children understand. However, if we look at it objectively, we would need to look at how cultural roots influenced this as it came from gender roles in all cultures. Moreso, we would want to look at possible reasons BESIDES SEXISM that this may be the case.

Do you think it takes more than a simple plot device to deem an entire work sexist?

Look, if you don't want to consider games or other things through that lens, that's fine, but this is getting a little weird. It's hardly shoehorning to include an example of possible sexism, say. The entire damn show is about sexism and the many ways the content we consume can be problematic.

You must have skipped the part where I mentioned I am all for the idea people are rallying behind on your side. Since you mentioned objectivity let me point something out to you. You can skew just about anything to an certain point of view so long as you go into it looking for it or intending to express it, that is where innuendo comes from. If you do that long enough you will start to just look at things in that perspective, naturally. This word is called bias. A show that is based not on the topic of sexism but on pointing out sexism that tries to determine if "possibly" games are sexist is heavily biased. That is not mental acrobatics, that is just a natural conclusion.

they are afraid she is gonna spread a lot of stupid into the world for no reason.

I think this can go without comment.

I think it speaks for itself too.

she hasn't even made a statement yet.

Nah, but fortunately we did. I suppose there's also the backlog of material to consider and, well, that it simply doesn't take much work to see how our industry is skewed towards masculine power fantasies.

Exactly! It doesn't take much work! Tah-dah, my point. Do you know why? Or are you just taking her word for it that it is sexism despite the fact that she won't show any proof of it, but instead make the assumption and show you a plot device.

Of course you're the ultimate judge of how mean I'm being, but I guess you're going to look pretty silly if I don't finish this Flash game about beating you up now.

Seriously? I have much thicker skin than that. Hell, I am tempted to make one real fast for you. I don't think you grasp just how much I think she cried foul just for the attention. I don't believe anyone willing to put their personal identity into the public via youtube or such doesn't have thicker skin than that. I don't buy into the whole "they're mean" crap, man. Save that for someone else. It's called being in the public eye and public image. If you ... oh, I don't know start a youtube series and can't handle the pressure of such, maybe you aren't that smart OR maybe you are using it as a ploy.

DeadpanLunatic:

Auron:

Whoever you are you're going to be ganked numerous times, as many as yours and the ganker's skill/boredom allows in fact, in a pvp server. The easy solution is going to a pve server, otherwise don't complain. Furthermore it's an ungodly amount of work to track someone and you need to have a high level character in the same server too.

Well certainly this one poor example shows that at least one guy is willing to put in the work for hunting a specific subset of people. Or what of the part where he goes into detail on ways for trolling the evil girl gamers on PvE servers? If you want to talk WoW at large, yeah, it probably isn't such a large issue, but if large scales is what we're after there's plenty of online gaming venues where tracking and harassing targets is easier.

The general and trade chat windows are usually, sadly, toxic enough against all kinds of species, sexes, colours and nubz(the worst kind of people obviously.) one more thing for the girl to /ignore is not a big deal in my eyes. Almost every single MMO nowadays has the same ruleset of Faction vs Faction and no talk between them, most allow you to have characters on both sides(which is how I suspect he does it, didn't care to watch enough of it to be honest.), I maintain that I think he's just generally trolling unless those streamers all play the same server which I don't think is the case.

If we start talking other genres, yes it's fairly easy to get into a fps server and harass someone. Mute and ignore usually exists in them so it's easy to solve, it would be nicer if we could just make people not be assholes but human history shows it's pretty unlikely.

One thing we tend to forget when discussing this is that men get trolled pretty hard too, in fact just as much. Xbox live is an extremely toxic environment for everyone I've seem numerous pieces detailing how it's misogynist. I don't consider it exclusively misogynist, they hate everything and everyone for free just to get a rise out of people I don't know why women deserve special consideration.

Lastly, I kind of agree with his assessment that some of these women are just trying to monetize their appearance, don't think mercilessly tracking them down on wow servers is the right answer though.
http://www.twitch.tv/tarababcock This is an excellent example, I watched a Starcraft game, she's a below average gold player. If a guy streams this kind of gameplay he gets trolled to death for being a noob she's earning money(no matter how much.)

SonicWaffle:

BurnedOutMyEyes:
FEAR IS THE LITTLE-DEATH THAT BRINGS TOTAL OBLITERATION.

Isn't "the little death" what the French call an orgasm, or am I mis-remembering something? I don't know about you, but I generally don't orgasm out of fear.

It requires at least one chipmunk and a heavy-duty industrial shredder.

Well, you should ask the french about that.
Oh, and a tip: Last time I asked the french, I got a savage beating, so I'd advise you to first offer them wine and cheese.

DeadpanLunatic:

Bara_no_Hime:

Edit 3: Just looked at your profile and saw that you are a male named Joe. Clearly not Ms. Hernandez. So thanks for re-posting her article - I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Sadly I am indeed not Patricia Hernandez, but I did write this thing here. It also seems that streaming does not pay that much.

Yes, I read that one already. Still, I'm already playing games for free. Even 2 bucks an hour for a stream would be 2 bucks more than I'm earning during that time now. I'm not suggesting I quit my day job, just considering the possible benefits of earning some cash doing what I do already. The issue of needing a moderator to keep the chat clean is rather daunting, however.

Also - ah, I see! The way you linked her article at the bottom of yours made it seem like it was "more by this author" so (since you name isn't on the article and I can't access the pretty version through the top link) I thought that was the attribution rather than a related link.

Anyway, I will re-edit my original post to reflect how awesome you are. Great article!

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